Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

Back to timings

Hello everyone,

Maybe this is the wrong time- given the previous posts- but ( and this is just thinking out loud while on a late lunch break) lets say that the body was discovered at 12:45ish instead of 1 o'clock. Wouldn't that make it more likely that the killer was interrupted since Blackwell arrived at 1:16 and said that Liz was dead about twenty minutes- no more than thirty?

As a sidebar- so to speak- Spooner claims that PC Lamb arrived about 4 or 5 minutes after he did.

Best Wishes and respect.
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Thats just what the boards are based on...senior investigators and researchers like yourself who think by using obviously flawed data long enough it suddenly somehow becomes valid....

I missed that in Stephen Ryder's mission statement.

I hope you get your book out before the world ends on Dec 21st, 2012

Are you kidding? I hope I get a chance to spend all my royalties by then! It's all about the Yankee Dollar, you know.

If Im not mistaken Tom you mentioned some details about the Arbeter Fraint paper itself recently...was that earlier in this thread?

Just wondering about PC Smith.

Are you seriously asking me for information after you've just told me for the 1000th time that I'm an idiot with no original thought just following some mysterious cabal of disinformation? Who's PC Smith?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Supe]

Tom,

They have brick walls in Oklahoma, right? You might be better asdvised to bang your head on one than to attempt a meaningful dialogue with some of the posters here for whom "facts" are solely what they believe and that assembling those "facts" into a coherent whole leads only to a chaos of contradictions. But since they have told themselves they are arrayed against the close-minded Ripperology establishment they are convinced they are "fighting the good fight.' In fact, many of them are the true Flat Earthers.

Carry on.

Don.

[perrymason]

Hello everyone,

Maybe this is the wrong time- given the previous posts- but ( and this is just thinking out loud while on a late lunch break) lets say that the body was discovered at 12:45ish instead of 1 o'clock. Wouldn't that make it more likely that the killer was interrupted since Blackwell arrived at 1:16 and said that Liz was dead about twenty minutes- no more than thirty?

As a sidebar- so to speak- Spooner claims that PC Lamb arrived about 4 or 5 minutes after he did.

Best Wishes and respect.
Hunter

Again Im not to hung up on inconsistencies that suggests errors of around 5 minutes or more, 20 minutes or more is an issue..... but on the above heres what Spooner says ....

"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the "Beehive," at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time,(midnight). I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along. They ????(hallosed?) out "Murder!" "Police!" They ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them, and asked them what was the matter. They said, "There has been a woman murdered in Berner-street." I went with them to the yard adjoining No. 40. I saw a young woman lying just inside the gate. There were about fifteen people in the yard standing round - most of them Jews. They were not touching her. I could see it was a young woman before they struck a light. One of the Jews struck a match and I lifted up the chin. I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I did not feel any other part of the body. I noticed she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned to her breast. I am sure I did not move the position of her head at all. The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. The blood was running down the gutter. I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police-constable Lamb came."

That means he saw the men then joined them to go into the yard around 12:45, that he was in the yard observing the woman and touching her chin sometime after 12:45 for some minutes, and then around 5 minutes more went by before he sees Lamb. That could well have been 10 or more minutes total time. When witnesses times dont correspond to the second that doesnt mean anyone was wrong...they could be out a few minutes without a problem. However, when multiple witnesses are seemingly off by 20 minutes or more based on a single contradictory account from a man whose job is is to ensure the club comes out of that night still in operation...one wonders who is zooming who.

On your first point Hunter it would suggest that the body was discovered much earlier, but it would do nothing to enhance any unsubstantiated interruption evidence, because whether Diemshitz pulled in at 12:40 ish or 1:00am ish, Liz had already been cut. The physical evidence doesnt change...if he interrupted the killer at 1am.... which is not in evidence anywhere other than as opinion,... the same probability exists with a 12:40 start time. And the same lack of supporting evidence.

Best regards

[Cap'n Jack]

'Originally Posted by perrymason
Thats just what the boards are based on...senior investigators and researchers like yourself who think by using obviously flawed data long enough it suddenly somehow becomes valid....'

Oh nice one, Michael, I missed that in the heat of the moment as I was about to throw a peer off a pier.

[Tom_Wescott]

AP,

I remember that you'd done some pretty extensive research on timepieces and time-telling in the LVP. Could you please point out to our friend Perry that just because Spooner thought it was 20 minutes earlier than it as does not mean there was some massive conspiracy to cover the fact that Diemschutz discovered Stride's body at 12:40 instead of 1am?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Tom,

They have brick walls in Oklahoma, right? You might be better asdvised to bang your head on one than to attempt a meaningful dialogue with some of the posters here for whom "facts" are solely what they believe and that assembling those "facts" into a coherent whole leads only to a chaos of contradictions. But since they have told themselves they are arrayed against the close-minded Ripperology establishment they are convinced they are "fighting the good fight.' In fact, many of them are the true Flat Earthers.

Carry on.

Don.

No surprises from "Frack" either.

I havent seen one post from you in eons that addresses actual contentions being made with solid factual foundation rebuttal, but plenty of them mouthing off to whomever is your punch bunny at the moment. You and others have been selling bullshit by the barrel claiming its 100% beef for years....and you criticize people who have discovered that fact.

Seems its a trait among you "scholars"... feeding off frenzied interest while demonstrating that truth will always take a second place to the unsubstantiated and unproven belief system you've built...and your economic impetus for not any ruffling feathers with questions concerning evidence integrity...or as In the Canonical Group, assumptions without evidentiary merit.

Keep concerning yourselves with big questions that you can address with scruples and some version of accuracy Don and Tom....like who lived where when, or whose sister went to school with whom, where was so and so in which census, what shoe size Israel might have had, where a depressed barrister stayed while killing street prostitutes for some unknown reason....and so on. If you had the guts to see the pat lines of Ripperology today as flawed and virtually unsubstantiated, we wouldnt need to be having these little chats.

Youre Faith based cultists and you dont even know it....not historians. They search for truth...they dont satisfy themselves with re-peddling the banal and ridiculous because it still sells. Youre on the side of the argument that most everyone with any intellect who has come to the study in the last 10 or 20 years learns is without merit.

That we differ so greatly is of great comfort to me personally....perhaps since you can make a living peddling stories about a make believe Killer you might be able to make believe that you feel that same kind of peace.

Belief....not data, not the investigations or any evidence known to exist is at the heart of your world. What is verifiable, believable and logical is at the heart of mine.

And virtually every claim made in every Ripper book to date that suggests "evidence" formed the Canonical Group, that "evidence" says we have a serial killer there....is misleading. There is no such "evidence". Never has been.

cheerio

[perrymason]

'Originally Posted by perrymason
Thats just what the boards are based on...senior investigators and researchers like yourself who think by using obviously flawed data long enough it suddenly somehow becomes valid....'

Oh nice one, Michael, I missed that in the heat of the moment as I was about to throw a peer off a pier.

You may like the next one too then AP.

My best regards

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh, Michael, I did indeed, a spanking post.

Tom, I'm happy to confirm to you that time pieces of any nature, including church or brewery clocks in the Whitechapel area had the genuine likelyhood of being at least fifteen minutes out of whack with GMT, in fact it was more likely to be twenty minutes; and I have the most eminent horologist in the world who will back that statement up.

[Jeff Leahy]

I mentioned several times in several posts that exact times by anyone are likely unavailable until Blackwell checks his watch, so a few minutes here or there using 5 witness accounts.....Isaac, Spooner, Heschberg, Fanny...saw no-one anywhere near the gates....Brown...saw no-one near the gates at approx 12:45am...to me is hardly a lack of suggestive evidence that Israel was not where he said he was, he didnt see what he says he saw, and at least,....and that Louis may have lied by approx 15 minutes about his arrival time.

If they all ended up at the body closer to 12:45...then its one minute off Blackwells earliest guess...and well within Phillips suggested time. For you to have your view be accurate....Fanny had to miss seeing the altercation or hearing it, Brown must have been wrong in his time because he didnt see any altercation or people in front of the gates, Isaac must have forgotten it was actually after 1am and he was with Louis, not alone when he says he left at 12:40, and Heschberg must also be off by 20 minutes, and Spooner confused 25 minutes of loitering with 45 minutes.

As to the remarks you made on a personal note, Im not likely to react positively to one remark in the midst of spurious rebuttals and insults. I can also assure you that you havent seen "cold" yet.

How you choose to see my remarks is up to you Tom...I assure you they are intended for actual students to assess and consider not for people who assume they already know. I could care less about changing any opinion of anyone within the "Ripperology" machine...they have clearly taken to heart what is not proven in any shape or form already.

I cant save the cultists....but maybe one fresh mind who asks questions so as to arrive at reasonable logical conclusions.

Best regards

Michael, Brown couldnt have seen anything as he bought his meal from Henry Norris at no 48 Berner Street...he came out of the shop and headed down FairClough street where he saw a couple out side the board school in FAIRCLOUGH STREET NOT BERNER STREET at the same time that Schwartz turned from Commercial Street into Berner Street

"12.45 am 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour on turning into Berner Street from COMMERCIAL STREET" from police statement.

"On his way back, approx 12.45 He sees a man and woman standing against the board school?

Neither Schwartz or Brown could possibly have seen each other if both are correct about their time of 12.45

Its very simple Browns Statement supports Schwartz as long as you accept he didnt see Liz Stride.

It's just a question of lining up the wheelie bins and getting their POV

Yours Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

Don,

Thanks for the back-up. What's 'Frack' mean?

Michael,

It sounds like you're doing for another of your 'I'm quitting these boards because everyone's an idiot' spaz fit. You need to watch the blood pressure. As you can see from the post by AP (whom at last count you didn't consider a 'frack' or whatever), most timepieces were not accurate, so there's no mystery at all in Spooner thinking it was 20 minutes earlier than it was. As he was pubcrawling, he might also not have been his soberest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Michael, Brown couldnt have seen anything as he bought his meal from Henry Norris at no 48 Berner Street...he came out of the shop and headed down FairClough street where he saw a couple out side the board school in FAIRCLOUGH STREET NOT BERNER STREET at the same time that Schwartz turned from Commercial Street into Berner Street

"12.45 am 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour on turning into Berner Street from COMMERCIAL STREET" from police statement.

"On his way back, approx 12.45 He sees a man and woman standing against the board school?

Neither Schwartz or Brown could possibly have seen each other if both are correct about their time of 12.45

Its very simple Browns Statement supports Schwartz as long as you accept he didnt see Liz Stride.

It's just a question of lining up the wheelie bins and getting their POV

Yours Jeff

I understand that observation Jeff, but Im certain that Im not the first to suggest that their statements cannot coexist. And I do know only 1 was made at the Inquest. I admit freely that I do not know the precise angle of Browns scope of view in terms of the gates, but I do know that almost every modern author favors Schwartz to Brown based on the theory that he didnt actually see Liz Stride....he saw Fannys couple.

Im not so sure his evidence reads that way myself.

I will concede based on my lack of first hand knowledge of his peripheral exposure that its possible he didnt see in front of the gates, but he didnt hear anything like a scuffle or yell, which based on Israel, would be probable...and in fact he may well have seen Liz Stride nowhere near the gates at 12:45 ish..like he thought he had.

Best regards Jeff

[Hunter]

Spooner- The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. The blood was running down the gutter. I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police-constable Lamb came."

Hi Michael,

Your assumption that Spooner was at the murder site longer than 5 minutes before Lamb arrives is a valid one. My problem with him is that he seems to be inconsistant on timings in his own testimony.

[Coroner] Could any one have left without your observing it?
[Spooner] - I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

On your first point Hunter it would suggest that the body was discovered much earlier, but it would do nothing to enhance any unsubstantiated interruption evidence, because whether Diemshitz pulled in at 12:40 ish or 1:00am ish, Liz had already been cut. The physical evidence doesnt change...if he interrupted the killer at 1am.... which is not in evidence anywhere other than as opinion,... the same probability exists with a 12:40 start time. And the same lack of supporting evidence.

It would seem to me that the physical evidence would place the murder closer to Louis' arrival if Liz was found a quarter hour earlier, wouldn't it? - given Blackwell's statement.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Supe]

Tom,

What's 'Frack' mean?

Frick and Frack were old blackface comedians. Obviously not a compliment, but then consider the source.

Don.

[perrymason]

It would seem to me that the physical evidence would place the murder closer to Louis' arrival if Liz was found a quarter hour earlier, wouldn't it? - given Blackwell's statement.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

The pretext being that the physical circumstances would be altered by an arrival earlier than stated? Not sure Im getting the gist Hunter.

Blackwell's estimate was 20 minutes to 1/2 hour from when he first arrived and noted the time....1:16am. Phillips who arrives shortly thereafter, closer to 1:30am, estimates that it was within an hour of his arrival.

By using both accounts it seems prudent to surmise that the cut was sometime between 12:46 and 12:56am, but with Phillips not stating that 1/2 an hour was reasonable to him, and Blackwell not suggesting less than 20 minutes, we should err on a time that is closer to the 12:46am time....which again, is estimated and could be off, like everyone's timing, by a few minutes here or there. That roughly aligns with 3 witness statements.

When one is asked to imagine that someone could not tell the difference between a 5 minute interval from a 20 minute interval even without a time source reference, that he could not know for certain if he was alone, or if he met anyone, and that 3 witness timings that suggest a dead body discovery around 12:45am must be countered using an uncorroborated arrival of a single witness and official at the Club and a witness whose value in the story itself is unknown....I suggest that some further analysis be done.

Best regards Hunter