Did jack kill liz stride?

[lynn cates]

rigid break

Hello Supe.

"Not true. Kate Eddowes received only a single throat slash. And while it is difficult to be certain, Mary Jane Kelly would seem to have suffered a single slash as well."

That's my impression too. It's almost like there is a rigid break (throat cut wise) between C1 & C2 on the one hand and C3-C5 on the other.

Interesting!

The best.
LC

[FrankO]

Look at a sequence of events.

1.The Killer puts one hand over her mouth, one hand around her throat.
2.Once unconscious the victim is placed/dropped to the ground.
3.The killer slashes the throat. with the victim turned away from him to prevent arterial spray.
4.Waits a minute or two for the blood flow to lessen.
5.Turns the victim flat on her back
6.Begins mutilations.

Diemschutz comes into view as Strides killer is at No4......and voila, you have a perfect case for her being one of the C5.

Hi Sox,

You forgot 2 important steps:
-1. The killer and victim meet and proceed to the crime spot.
0. The killer doesn’t act suspiciously (enough) right until the moment he launches her initial attack and it’s too late.

In other words, the killer has every opportunity to abolish his plan of murder & mutilation at every given moment without the intended victim being suspicious of him, should the need arise (like when he would heard a cart and pony approach).

As to 2, the tightly pulled scarf around Stride’s neck and the position she was found in do support Blackwell’s opinion that the killer got hold of the scarf from behind and pulled her backwards. There’s no evidence of this in any of the other cases.

As to 3, there’s no need for the Ripper to have turned his victims complete body away from him. In fact, seeing that he was pressed for time, it would have been better to have them on their backs ready for abdominal mutilation and then just turn away the head from him. That way the arterial spray would also be directed away from him. Furthermore, with someone one her back it would be far more easy to notch the vertebrae than with a person on her side. Obviously, step 5 would then be redundant.

To me, these considerations and the general circumstances surrounding this murder make it a far less perfect case for her being part of the C.

I'll check my notes tomorrow, but I am pretty certain Strides coat or bodice was undone.

It was Blackwell who deposed that Stride’s dress was undone at the top, but this had been done earlier by his assistant Edward Johnston.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Your sequence helps for a coherent time line but I do see one problem. If her assailant waits 1 or 2 minutes for arterial spray to lessen and given that choking to unconsciousness takes about 60 seconds (plus or minus 30), then, by cutting and pasting that scenario onto Mitre Square, you are looking at 3 or 4 minutes out of a total of 5-7. That may not leave enough time for the mutilation of Kate.

Hi Lynn,

I have a couple of remarks here.
1. Strangling someone into unconsciousness can be done in about 15 seconds by stopping the blood flow to the brain (don’t know this from experience though ).
2. The Ripper could at least lift the skirts and open the legs while his victim was bleeding out.
3. Although I’m by no means a medical expert, I think that arterial spray wouldn’t last for 2 minutes and that the Ripper could start on his mutilations without getting all blood quite soon. After all, if the major blood pressure had subsided after a minute or so and the victim was on her back, then the little blood, if any, that still would flow from the abdominal wounds would flow into the abdominal cavity.

However, even though in my view it may not have taken more than 1.5 minutes before he could start the mutilations, the Ripper must have been very much pressed for time. So it seems fair to wonder if he would have wasted time doing things that weren’t really necessary or important to his actual purpose, the mutilations.

All the best,
Frank

[Jeff Leahy]

I understand that observation Jeff, but Im certain that Im not the first to suggest that their statements cannot coexist. And I do know only 1 was made at the Inquest.

Well I'm stating as FACT that they were wrong. The two statements can co-exist. To anyone who doubts it buy the conference DVD with Philip Hutchinsons excellent talk tour of Berner Street.

Once turning from Commercial Street into Henriqui Street it took our deligates around a minute and a half to two minutes to walk the distance from the top of what was Berner Street to where Philip estimates the entrance to Dutfeild yard to have been.

The Shop Brown bought his meal from is another 30 yrds to the south wherre Fairclough Street crosses Berner street.

So it is simply a matter of Fact that if Brown saw his couple at 12.45

The same time that Schwartz claimed to turn into Berner Street from Commercial Road.

Then they would have missed each other by seconds..FACT.

If anyone doubts this I am happy to go through the master footage and time Chris George who I believe I was filming at the time. But its got to take 1-2 minutes before the incident with Stride could happen by which time Brown would be opening his front door ready to eat his meal.

I admit freely that I do not know the precise angle of Browns scope of view in terms of the gates, but I do know that almost every modern author favors Schwartz to Brown based on the theory that he didnt actually see Liz Stride....he saw Fannys couple.

Thats up to you guys. But anything could have happened. Perhaps Brown did see Liz, she crossed the road with that man, he killed her 3-4 later and he left the scene and schwartz made it up? thats speculation.

I'm only stating the timings claimed are all possible.

Im not so sure his evidence reads that way myself.

I will concede based on my lack of first hand knowledge of his peripheral exposure that its possible he didnt see in front of the gates, but he didnt hear anything like a scuffle or yell, which based on Israel, would be probable...and in fact he may well have seen Liz Stride nowhere near the gates at 12:45 ish..like he thought he had.

Best regards Jeff

As explained if his timing of 12.45 is correct he would have been at his door possibly eating his meal by the time the three, not very loud screams were made....

Ask anyone in the 2009 conference DVD how long it takes to walk from commercial road down Berner st to the Dutfield yard location.

Yours jeff

PS Assistant Commissioner Anderson wrote:

“With freto yr letter &c. I have to State that the opinion arrived at in this dept upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz Strides case is that the name Lipski which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berner Street on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself. It appears that since the Lipski case, it has become to be used as an epithet in addressing or speaking of Jews”

[Sam Flynn]

Notations of belief in memos doesnt suffice when we have a perfect opportunity for him to have documented his story for public review.

Again, Mike, it's a fact that some witness testimony was kept out of public view at the behest of the authorities. The original, official, record of the inquest has gone missing - we don't even have so much as an Index page - so we may never know for sure. Whether you or I see the inquest a "perfect opportunity for documenting Schwartz's story" or not, it's sadly not in our gift to insist that it should have been documented by the press. For the record, I don't actually believe that Schwartz attended the inquest, but I can't rule out the possibility.

[Sam Flynn]

Ask anyone in the 2009 conference DVD how long it takes to walk from commercial road down Berner st to the Dutfield yard location.

I actually timed it, Jeff. I made it around two-and-a-half minutes... at a gentle trotting pace

[lynn cates]

times

Hello Frank. Thank you for those observations. They are well thought out.

"1. Strangling someone into unconsciousness can be done in about 15 seconds by stopping the blood flow to the brain (don’t know this from experience though )."

That's a good estimate and I tend to agree. My analysis took account of anoxia ONLY and not lessened blood flow. But your point is well taken: the assailant needs only to have the victim unconscious--how that unconsciousness is accomplished is an indifferent matter.

"2. The Ripper could at least lift the skirts and open the legs while his victim was bleeding out."

This is quite true and seems to suggest that lifting her skirts was not intended. Or it could indicate caution. Of course, if one is very cautious, choosing a murder venue (and eventual mutilation) only a few feet from a partly open door of a club where a meeting is breaking up, may be proscribed.

"3. Although I’m by no means a medical expert, I think that arterial spray wouldn’t last for 2 minutes and that the Ripper could start on his mutilations without getting all blood[y] quite soon. After all, if the major blood pressure had subsided after a minute or so and the victim was on her back, then the little blood, if any, that still would flow from the abdominal wounds would flow into the abdominal cavity."

Again, I agree. As you can see, I was working with the hypothesized times of the post. Those times are not sacred.

In conclusion, I think your times tend to enhance the hypothetical time line at Mitre Square. I think, however, that it also tends to detract from some of the suppositions involved in Dutfield's Yard.

The best.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

I actually timed it, Jeff. I made it around two-and-a-half minutes... at a gentle trotting pace

and your sure you didn't stop off for a quick pint on route?

Jeff

PS what your view on Andersons statement above: "upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz Strides case"

[Observer]

Hi Sam

You're not a very fast jogger are you. The man pictured below, stands roughly and I emphasise roughly at the entrance to Dutfields Yard. The white van at the top of the street on the right hand side is mere yards from Commercial Road, the modern building running accross the picture beyond the van is in commercial Road

all the best

Observer

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks Observer that gives everyone a much better idea of teh distance involved.

My guess is that its about the same distance that Brown has to travel to number 35 Fairclough street.

I dont suppose you have a picture looking west?

Many thanks Jeff

PS If I time the tape Sam might be correct. They were a bunch of dordlers who kept going the wrong way..

[Observer]

Here is another view. The photograph shows the corner of Berner Street, and Fairclough Steet. Again the modern building running across the photo in the distance is in Commercial road. I'll leave someone to point out the exact position of Duttfields Yard, I have a vague idea, but not an exact one.

all the best

Observer

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi all

Philip Hutchinson recon's the school gates in the centre is a fairly good indication of the entrance of Dutfield yard. I will try and find a picture of him standing there...but its on the conference DVD via Adam Wood only £15.

Browns path would have taken him infront of the camerman, perhaps two three feet infront....travelling left to right....

If camera turns 90 degrees to his left he would see Browns direction.

Many thanks observer

Jeff

[Observer]

Hi Jeff, here is a Photograph of Fairclough Street, can't remember if it's looking East or West though.

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

On second thoughts looking at the street corner if might not be Fairclough Street. I'll have to start taking note of my photographs, my memory isn't as good as it used to be. It should be Fairclough Street judging by the photos either side of it though.

all the best

Observer

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi all

This is a still taken from the conference DVD of Philip showing the location of Dutfeild Yard .

His New book however has more detailed maps and of course the photograph of Dutfield yard itself.

Jeff