Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

Hello All,

Chad, your post is well conceived taken from the evidence and theories posted throughout this thread. Of course, you will get an argument as to whether it was the same killer as to the previous victims. Whether Liz was cut while falling or when she was on the ground I think he had to be behind her to begin his assault as this is the best position to prevent a good defense from the victim. As I've stated this was the way street prostitutes serviced their clients and is part of what made them vulnerable to an individual that they had to trust. Now, she could have been facing away from him for some other reason- we don't know- but I am of the opinion that all of these women were soliciting. The police were of that opinion and despite making some mistakes along the way they knew the streets and the habits of individuals there. From what I could gather the corner of the yard at the gate was the darkest location despite the street lights and such as the building and the large gate cast a shadow.


[QUOTE=lynn cates;114259]Hello Hunter. Do you think Liz could be spun round and retain her cachous?

Lynn, its been a couple of days for me to find an answer to your question as I have been rethinking it.

First, I don't think she was spun around but was pulled backwards. I did an experiment with my wife ( safely of course) and had her hold some small beads wrapped in tissue in her left hand ( she's right handed) while I pulled her backwards to throw her off balance. After 3 times she never let go of the tissue. I didn't try a more solid object ( I didn't want to try her patience) but I surmised that Liz would naturally clutch the soft tissue- even while trying to break a fall- as opposed to a more solid object, like a tobacco tin- which she might have discarded. It may do well to see if there are victims of other violent murders that were found with something still in thier hand.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello Hunter. Capital! I wish more of us would do such reconstructions.

My point is that a quick seizing by the scarf, cut, and crumple on the ground (2 seconds) might allow retention of cachous.

On the other hand, tossing, spinning round, etc. will cause a spill (did you try any of these?). Of course, being asked to lie down on the wet pavement would likely have preoccupied Liz to the point that she were indifferent to retaining the cachous between thumb and forefinger. If I were in a bank and forced at gun point to kneel, it would be unlikely that I would continue to clutch the pen in my hand with which I had been writing.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

I've been reading through everyone's interesting thoughts here and gone back to Blackwell's testimony to see something which may set a burning issue to rest.

Liz Stride was on the ground when her throat was cut. According to Blackwell, there was no blood on her dress nor on her shoes, only on one hand.

Had her killer been behind her, as has been speculated, and had cut her throat while she stood, blood, from her body's natural pressure, would have spurted out, would have gushed down her dress. There was no blood on her dress. Therefore, she had to have been down, on her side for the blood flows to be as depicted in the doctor's, and everyone who was on the scene's, testimony. I know he said he could have started the cutting while she fell, but why?

Diemshutz was unaware of what he had come upon in the darkness of that area. It would have been easy for the killer, who must have moved quickly from the body down the wall of the club(and startled the horse), to have exited behind the cart, when Diemshutz's attentions were on focused on the shock of finding a woman's body.

Given the facts from those who were there, it is no stretch to see that this murder, which seemed to be in an ideal place for her killer's purposes at first, was interrupted. It is well worth speculating that he was in the process of slitting her throat when the trap drew close, even began its turn. This may account for the distracted way in which he cut her, not making it as deep, as thorough a job, as he had when he could concentrate on his efforts.

We can guess about a lot of things, but the evidence shows that Liz was down and on her side when he began to cut her. The laws of anatomy and gravity cannot be countermanded.

Whether he choked her down with her scarf or forced her down by threat with his knife, I think Liz had hope for life. She was a woman of little means and few possesions. Grasping those candies in her hand speaks with sad pathos her desperate cling to life; that this was not the end. She may well have been dying as that trap entered the gate and help seemed on the way. The driver did not realize the gravity of the moment until it was too late for her and her killer had slipped away in the darkness.

I don't think the evidence proves that JTR could not have been the one. Indeed, if Catherine Eddowes had not been murdered soon afterwards, one could make the case more strongly for it to be someone else. The fact that the Ripper was out on the streets that night, looking to ply his evil intent, demonstrates that the chances of Stride's murder being his doing much more plausible.

I have no problem including her in the cannonical grouping.

Best to you,
~Chadwick

Chad,

you have to remember olny the carotid artery had been half severed so he could have well cut her throat while she was standing.

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh my gosh, I find it very hard indeed to swallow all these elaborate and crafted theories concerning this murder... they probably just slipped over in the mud because they had been drinking rather a lot of ale.

[Hunter]

Hello Hunter. Capital! I wish more of us would do such reconstructions.

My point is that a quick seizing by the scarf, cut, and crumple on the ground (2 seconds) might allow retention of cachous.

On the other hand, tossing, spinning round, etc. will cause a spill (did you try any of these?). Of course, being asked to lie down on the wet pavement would likely have preoccupied Liz to the point that she were indifferent to retaining the cachous between thumb and forefinger. If I were in a bank and forced at gun point to kneel, it would be unlikely that I would continue to clutch the pen in my hand with which I had been writing.

No Lynn, I didn't try anything else. we didn't have a proper cushion other than carpet. Maybe someone else will do something more extensive. As for now, I will have to settle for my wife believing that I am sane

Funny thing is, before, I thought that it was unlikely for anyone to not discard an object in hand while falling or being tossed around. Now, I'm not so sure. Sometimes what we immediately presume is not necessarily the case. My theory is - based on just this little experiment- that a woman might retain a small soft object with her weak hand while still trying to break a fall- as opposed to a larger solid device that in a reflexive impulse may be more awkward. Heck, Schwartz may have seen something after all. Physics and the human mind under sudden stress may point to a different interpretation.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[corey123]

Hunter,

I had always though the cascous to be the result of involentary hand clentching.

[Hunter]

Drunk?

Oh my gosh, I find it very hard indeed to swallow all these elaborate and crafted theories concerning this murder... they probably just slipped over in the mud because they had been drinking rather a lot of ale.

Hi Cap'n Jack,

If we are to believe the autopsy report Liz had not been drinking- at least not much. Of course Mrs. Tanner said she had a drink with her earlier in the day- many hours before.

If your comment was "tongue in cheek" please disregard Post.

Hunter

[Cap'n Jack]

'11:00 PM: Two laborers, J. Best and John Gardner were going into the Bricklayer's Arms Public House on Settles street, north of Commercial Road and almost opposite Berner Street. As they went in Stride was leaving with a short man with a dark mustache and sandy eyelashes. The man was wearing a billycock hat, mourning suit and coat. Best says "They had been served in the public house and went out when me and my friends came in. It was raining very fast and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on at the woman." Stride and her man stood in the doorway for some time hugging and kissing. The workmen tried to get the man to come in for a drink but he refused. They then called to Stride. "That's Leather Apron getting 'round you." The man and Stride moved off towards Commercial Road and Berner Street. "He and the woman went off like a shot soon after eleven."

Well, Hunter, they must have been drinking lemonade in the Bricklayer's Arms eh?
Of course it never rained that night, there were no grapes... bla bla bla.

[lynn cates]

takers

Hello Hunter.

"As for now, I will have to settle for my wife believing that I am sane"

That's good; mine thought I was crazy and got upset when I inadvertently injured her wrist.

My thinking is that one can fall quickly and retain; be thrown (as per Schwartz) and likely not.

Any takers out there?

The best.
LC

[Chadwick]

Gushy

Chad,

you have to remember olny the carotid artery had been half severed so he could have well cut her throat while she was standing.

As Shakespear once penned, "If you prick us, do we not bleed?"

This was more than a pin prick...

Blackwell said that the killer cut through the left side of the neck's blood vessels, but not through the other. He sliced through her wind pipe. He estimated that there was about a "pound of clotted blood" next to her and a stream of it extending down toward the club.

You know this, but it may not have settled into your thought pattern concerning this case. We all have a blood pressure. Blood is coursing through our veins constantly, being pumped by our hearts. When we are cut in any way, blood is forced out of the opening by that pressure.

There is the carotid artery but also a whole host of blood vessels that service the vital functions that the head performs. There are so many, that if you cut the head anywhere, it bleeds profusely.

If you cut your finger and hold it upwards (I don't recommend this for those of you who have been trying real life enactments with their wives... ) the blood naturally flows downward.

Gravity.

Cutting a person's neck, even if the cut was only on one side of the body, as Blackwell noted:

"In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The border was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife. The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 inches below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 inch below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side. I could not ascertain whether the bloody hand had been moved. The blood was running down the gutter into the drain in the opposite direction from the feet. There was about 1lb of clotted blood close by the body, and a stream all the way from there to the back door of the club."

There is a copious amount of blood which would have immediately, due to the nature of our bodily blood pressure, gushed down the front of her dress.

"[Coroner] Was there any blood on the soles of the deceased's boots? - No.

[Coroner] No splashing of blood on the wall? - No, it was very dark, and what I saw was by the aid of a policeman's lantern. I have not examined the place since. I examined the clothes, but found no blood on any part of them. The bonnet of the deceased was lying on the ground a few inches from the head. Her dress was unbuttoned at the top."

Maybe in 1888 medical science didn't recognize what is common knowledge today. For whatever reason, Liz Stride was on the ground, on her side, when he slit her throat. Blood evidence doesn't lie. From his own testimony, we can see what happened, despite what he concludes.

If she was on the ground with her head turned to the right, as was stated in the testimony, he could have held her head down and sliced down, which would have cut the vessels on the left and missed the vessels on the right. Gruesome imagery, but we delve into such in these discussions.

I realize I am a newbee to the Casebook, but I am not without medical understanding in the real world. Hopefully, we enrich these pages by bringing such things to our discussions.

I have thought much on your theories, Corey, and I agree with you about his narcissism. I'm with you.

Best you,
~Chadwick

[lynn cates]

take down

Hello Chadwick. If the take down is 2 seconds from beginning to end, and the cut comes AFTER 1 second, and if the cut is towards the ground side, how much blood is there?

If Liz was cut AFTER being on the ground, then there is only ONE solution--her assailant placed the cachous between her thumb and forefinger.

The best.
LC

[Hunter]

'11:00 PM:
Well, Hunter, they must have been drinking lemonade in the Bricklayer's Arms eh?
Of course it never rained that night, there were no grapes... bla bla bla.

Hello Cap'n Jack,

I don't think they were drinking lemonade either if Liz is who they saw. They seemed to remember the face was a different complexion ( but being dead could do that) and her nose was different . All I know is what the inquest testimony said and I really don't know how reliable they could be about alcohol consumtion at that time. Personally, I take all of the statements- either with the press or at the inquest with a grain of salt- including any speculation by the doctors.

As I've stated before on this thread, I think all of the women were soliciting. All but Stride were known to be intoxicated and I do question the verdict on Stride. There were certain characteristics about these women that made them easy prey for an opportunistic murderer. Prostitutes performing coitus with strangers from the rear, outdoors ( except Kelly) in at least semi seclusion, drunk, was like chumming the water before you start fishing. Coupled with the fact they were suddenly assaulted, in the same area, in a compressed time span ( as opposed to the few that happened before and after on a wider time span), their throats cut from left to right, on weekends or holidays, at night or early morning suggest the likelyhood of a single killer. Any modern police investigation with this information- without modern forensics- would suggest the same. But those that have offered other theories that are at least possible are interesting to me because before I joined this board I had presumed alot to be set in stone. Now I'm not so quick to presume anything.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

P.S.- I thought there were no grapes- well- goes to show what I know. I think Cullen said there were grapes and he was better "egicated" than me.

[corey123]

Chad,

First of all we cant state what we dont know. We dont know that she was killed whilst on her side.

We could make many possible senerios while relying on "blood evidence".

I agree, the evidence does suggest she died while on her left side, but then a number of questions rise up.

Did he put her like that?
She couldnt have so it must have been him, but why such a shallow cut?(compared to the rest?)
Why did it give the impression of a shorter knife?
Was the killer over her or knealing behind her as he cut her throat?(the latter would help explain the impression of a shorter knife)
Why did he leave her there?

I do believe she was a ripper victims but shes very difficult to place.

My reasons for doing so is,

Shes too similar.
Too close in dates.
Same victimology of the rest of them.
If he had been knealing behind her that could explain why it seemed to be a short knife, and may have been the same knife for all the five.
Who else is a better suspect for her?

[Chadwick]

Tracy and Hepburn

Hello Chadwick. If the take down is 2 seconds from beginning to end, and the cut comes AFTER 1 second, and if the cut is towards the ground side, how much blood is there?

If Liz was cut AFTER being on the ground, then there is only ONE solution--her assailant placed the cachous between her thumb and forefinger.

The best.
LC

Your equation reminds me of the frigid, blustery scene from the old movie with Hepburn and Tracy called "Desk Set". He was testing her with a whole bunch of odd, complicated questions, trying to trip her up. Pretty funny.

The blood flow is immediate and with the carotid, explosive.

As for timing, cut across a grapefruit (no spouses, please ) to see how long it would take you to cut deeply through it. It wouldn't be a second, especially if that grapefruit could struggle.

As to her blood alcohol level, if she hadn't been drinking since 10:30 - 11:00, as was mentioned earlier, Diemshutz said he arrived home at !:00 am. Her levels would have diminished greatly in that time period. Diemshutz also testified that it was "windy" when he arrived.

Best to you,
~Chadwick

[perrymason]

Some very interesting points of view being offered.

A few things though.....it is entirely possible that Blackwell was accurate in his assessment of when her cut took place...and he never said while she stood there...nor have I. He said she may have been cut "while falling"....which eliminates the issue of "missing" arterial spray.

And if she was cut while falling, the fact that there is no indication that she moved from that position she landed in....on her left side....or was touched again by her killer....should indicate that the assault was over when he cuts her. All that happened after she fell is that her legs drew into her body in a protective, fetal-like manner. Its how she died.

Also, there was no alcohol in her blood, she wasnt drunk.

The clenched hand sort of prohibits cachous being inserted into her hand after the fact...they were clenched to the point where the packet spilled open rather than released from her hand completely when the doctor attempted to remove it.

She faced the wall in death, and her assailant had grabbed her by her scarf from behind. I know many people here will suddenly assume....she is with her back the the client servicing him.... I always like the predictable errors.

Her scarf was twisted, the knot moving over to the left side of her neck. Now, if she faced the gates at the time, she would have been forced by that twisting motion and to prevent the knot from cutting off her air completely, to slightly turn to her left... in the same direction as the twist. She would be off balance while doing so,...unstable on her feet. A right handed man then stuck the blade along the line of her scarf and slit it along that line, dropping her in the process.

Thats a 2 or 3 second crime. Just like suggested by Blackwell....and when the killer lets go of the scarf,.....he doesnt do anything else to her.

Why not? Well the interruption theory is so speculative I dont want to give it credence...but a simple reasonable answer is that he left after that.

Since 2 witnesses for that crime suggest by the times that they gave to the press and I assume police that same night that they were standing by a dead woman inside the gates at around 12:40......the interruption looks very weak. One is Isaac K and the other is Spooner,....and Isaac is sent as per his remark by Diemshutz, alone, and he returns after meeting up with Eagle and the policeman in tow,...meaning...he was gone, and could not have conspired to create a "new" arrival time for Louis.

Spooner of course would have no reason to stretch the truth at all....and his timing and activities matches Isaacs account.

Best regards all.