Did jack kill liz stride?

[Cogidubnus]

yet still we see arguments based upon an assumption of precision in the 19th centurywhich cannot be sensibly justified.

Not on my part Colin - as I'm frequently and sarcastically reminded...

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Key word is 'estimate'. You're forging no new ground here, DRoy. Same nonsense has been spouted a thousand times. Schwartz did see Pipeman who did see BS Man who did see Schwartz. Mortimer saw Goldstein who did say he was there. Mortimer heard Diemshitz at the time he said he came home. Brown saw Stride with a man standing in the same spot that Schwartz found him a minute or two later. In fact, I'd expect more incongruities than what we see here considering how many people were involved. But everyone who should have seen so and so, apparently did see so and so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Entirely agree. The accuracy of such timepieces as were around has to be questionable, so all timings have to be seen as approximate. Even 96 years later, when the Police and Criminal Evidence Act came out, it was acknowledged (within the legislation) that all timings - even within the police station! - were to be seen as approximate; yet still we see arguments based upon an assumption of precision (in the 19th century!) which cannot be sensibly justified.

[Bridewell]

Tom,

As per The Daily News Oct 1...

"The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Cheers
DRoy

"she remarked upon the circumstance" could mean several things but perhaps, looking at the context, she simply remarked that it was quiet enough to hear the sound of the pony and cart which was usually drowned out by other noise. The circumstance would thus be the unusual fact of hearing the cart, rather than anything unusual about its arrival.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

...and a bunch of the witnesses who apparently didn't even see each other although their estimated times suggest they should have.

Cheers
DRoy

Key word is 'estimate'. You're forging no new ground here, DRoy. Same nonsense has been spouted a thousand times. Schwartz did see Pipeman who did see BS Man who did see Schwartz. Mortimer saw Goldstein who did say he was there. Mortimer heard Diemshitz at the time he said he came home. Brown saw Stride with a man standing in the same spot that Schwartz found him a minute or two later. In fact, I'd expect more incongruities than what we see here considering how many people were involved. But everyone who should have seen so and so, apparently did see so and so.

Are you going to bring up the 'young couple' that I've already proved were nowhere near the scene at 12:45? I've shown that time and time again and yet it's conveniently ignored by those who'd rather tell stories than do research. I hope you're not part of that group.

You can imagine all the intrigue you want...there's plenty of it in other Ripper murders...but it's not here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DRoy]

The solitude of the street is further born out by Goldstein and Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

...and a bunch of the witnesses who apparently didn't even see each other although their estimated times suggest they should have.

Cheers
DRoy

[Tom_Wescott]

There's no 'gilding the lilly' at all. It says right there what 'struck her' to comment and that was the quiet of the street, emphasized by the passing of the cart, which would have been the first noise she'd heard on the street, thus prompting the comment. The solitude of the street is further born out by Goldstein and Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Tom

The way I read it is she commented on the horse and cart passing, but I'm sure we'll not all fall out about it!

I've no time for any belief Diemschutz arrived earlier and then conspired, but I do believe that his arrival at such a late hour might have been atypical or exceptional and hence Mrs Mortimer commenting on it to her husband.

If, on the other hand, Diemschutz often returned at this time, then perhaps she's gilding the lily a little in her account to the Daily News.

All the best

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

As per The Daily News Oct 1...

"The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

I believe this is what Dave was referring to.

Cheers
DRoy

What struck her was the solitude of the street. This is what she commented to her husband on when the pony and cart passed by, accentuating how quiet it was. There was nothing special about the passing of the cart itself.

The passing of the cart occurred about four minutes after Godstein passed by. Goldstein says he passed by shortly before 1am. Diemshitz says he discovered the body at 1am. The times add up perfectly, which is inconvenient for some theorists who want to believe that Diemshitz arrived much earlier than 1am, discovered the body, and plotted for ten minutes before announcing the discovery.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi DRoy

I was about to respond to Tom, but notice you have already. Thanks! Yes - that's the account I was meaning...and I'm sure you're quite right about journalists spicing up the stories too...

As I surmised on another thread, I'm pretty sure the two differing accounts of Mortimer's time at the door are accounted for by the usage of a fairly verbatim account versus that of an edited agency feed - and per my notes Messrs Chisholm, DiGrazia and Yost comment on the differences in their excellent "The News from Whitechapel"

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Not at all Tom

If my neighbour regularly came in at a certain time, I probably wouldn't even notice his comings and goings...so why should I suddenly make special comment about it to my spouse? Answer...I wouldn't...

I'd only even notice it (let alone mention it) if it were an exceptional event...and that's surely the point Tom...these people live on top of one another and they notice if their neighbours are doing something different...

(Alternatively of course, I didn't notice at all...)

All the best

Dave

Dave,

Interesting as you say since not only did she remark hearing the pony and cart to her hubby (which shouldn't be news as you suggest) but apparently also thought it weird the street was so quiet.

Perhaps it was just a journalist making the story a little more colorful and interesting or perhaps that is what Mortimer actually said.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Hi Cog,

I have no idea what you mean about her talking to her husband about Diemshitz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

As per The Daily News Oct 1...

"The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

I believe this is what Dave was referring to.

Cheers
DRoy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Cog,

I have no idea what you mean about her talking to her husband about Diemshitz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[C. F. Leon]

Not at all Tom

If my neighbour regularly came in at a certain time, I probably wouldn't even notice his comings and goings...so why should I suddenly make special comment about it to my spouse? Answer...I wouldn't...

I'd only even notice it (let alone mention it) if it were an exceptional event...and that's surely the point Tom...these people live on top of one another and they notice if their neighbours are doing something different...

(Alternatively of course, I didn't notice at all...)

All the best

Dave

But you might say something like, "Gee, Old Dunkington is really clumping around tonight. Guess he got new boots." or "He's running late tonight" or "Good ol' Dunkington. You could set your clock by him."

Or (my Favorite), you might say something while waiting for that second boot.

[Cogidubnus]

Not at all Tom

If my neighbour regularly came in at a certain time, I probably wouldn't even notice his comings and goings...so why should I suddenly make special comment about it to my spouse? Answer...I wouldn't...

I'd only even notice it (let alone mention it) if it were an exceptional event...and that's surely the point Tom...these people live on top of one another and they notice if their neighbours are doing something different...

(Alternatively of course, I didn't notice at all...)

All the best

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

She hears a pony and cart pull in next door. A few minutes later she hears the cries of murder and learns that her neighbor pulled his pony and cart in a few minutes earlier and found a body. Not sure I see anything 'iffy' or suspicious about it. The woman added 2 and 2 and came up with 4. Some here are trying to add 2 and 2 but are coming up with 666.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott