Did jack kill liz stride?

[Ginger]

I would think that anyone walking through such a passage would stay in the middle and avoid the gutter.

Middle of the way is where the horse poop is gonna be.

[lynn cates]

plausible

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Quite plausible.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

How does your scenario tie in with Stride being knifed in a sudden burst of anger by someone not used to cutting throats? What do you think she did to cause this anger, and why wouldn't she have anticipated a bad reaction and been a bit more prepared for it?

This was up close and personal, yet it apears that she was caught completely unawares - by someone who was ready, willing and able to do the most efficient job possible on her in the circumstances. She doesn't appear to have sensed any danger, or to have been given a nanosecond to react to it.

It just doesn't come across as a spur of the moment, angry lashing out at a woman who is causing a man grief and knows it. It looks more like a cool, planned, taking by surprise.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

That's a nice summing up, Caz and one that tends to get lost in all the discussion of lint brushes and club conspiracies and possible interruptions.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn,

How does your scenario tie in with Stride being knifed in a sudden burst of anger by someone not used to cutting throats? What do you think she did to cause this anger, and why wouldn't she have anticipated a bad reaction and been a bit more prepared for it?

This was up close and personal, yet it apears that she was caught completely unawares - by someone who was ready, willing and able to do the most efficient job possible on her in the circumstances. She doesn't appear to have sensed any danger, or to have been given a nanosecond to react to it.

It just doesn't come across as a spur of the moment, angry lashing out at a woman who is causing a man grief and knows it. It looks more like a cool, planned, taking by surprise.

Love,

Caz
X

Im fairly certain Caz that the fact the murder was as you put it "up close and personal" should be enough to explain how the killer could act so swiftly and catch Liz unaware. Now, was he up close and personal with her approval, or disapproval? Was he drunk or sober? Was he someone prone to violence or someone unaccustomed to it?

There is a perfect fit for someone to have been up close without her approval, perhaps quite drunk and prone to violence, and that would be someone who provided security at the event that night. Was he "dissed" by Liz in a rebuff...did he misinterpret her reason for being in the passage, why did he react so violently to some sort of provocation? Im sure we can all envision some belittling comments from a street wise middle aged woman and a possible reaction by a man unable to control his impulses at that moment.

All you need is an angry impulse, someone unable to restraint it, and 2 seconds of scuffle. There is no need for someone, as you put it..."ready, willing and able to do the most efficient job possible on her in the circumstances", although Ill admit such statements are perfectly in keeping with someone who assumes this woman was murdered because her killer had to kill someone. It is less theatrical when one supposes a simple case of drunken thug and sharp tongued street woman, but its simpler and easy to envision a momentary angry reaction. Particularly when the physical evidence supports a sudden blitzkrieg that lasts perhaps 2 seconds.

Lynn, if you have Liz with her back to the wall just inside the gates...in between the open kitchen door and the gate, the assailant is facing the wall, she is facing the side of the passage where the cottages were located. She pushes past him on his right side, he pivots and grabs her scarf with his left hand..(he is now facing the inside of the fence and gate-she is facing on a slight diagonal across the passageway to the open gates), he pulls and twists with his left hand, she is pulled backwards and to her left, forcing her to position her upper body to face the wall, he takes his knife out of his belt with his right hand, and as he pulls hard enough for her to lose her balance backward, the twist causing her to face the wall, he slides the knife across her throat as he drops the scarf. She falls, on her left side, head close to the wall, feet a few feet from the open gate,...her legs draw inward reflexively. She bleeds out and dies in that same position.

20 seconds to write about it, 2 seconds to execute it. She clamped down on what was in her hand at the moment she is caught by the scarf and never released that pressure in life.

Man sees woman waiting in passageway, a "low man"...just like the neighbors mentioned often after Saturday meetings and after 1am, approaches her as she waits with mints expecting someone from the club to come out. He thinks she is hooking, she tries to dissuade him, he is drunk and physical and insistent, she realizes she would be safer away from this lout and tries to head out into the street.

If Liz Stride was off the street after 12:35 and in the passageway, how come Eagle didnt see her...or Lave...or Eagle see Lave, or vice versa? If she was on the street awaiting BSM's approach, then how come Eagle didnt see her on the street?

Eagle sees nothing and no-one, Lave sees nothing and no-one, Louis sees nothing and no-one....yet Liz Stride has been in that immediate area since 12:35, and according to Israel Schwartz, she is very visible at 12:45 in front of the gates, with a man approaching her, and someone across the street...neither of which are seen by anyone else but Israel.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

deliberate

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

I think I merely asked why it could not have been anger.

In my reenactment, it was deliberate--just as you say.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

unaware

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Of course, to push past him, she would need to be unaware of any danger?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

If Liz Stride was off the street after 12:35 and in the passageway, how come Eagle didnt see her...or Lave...or Eagle see Lave, or vice versa? If she was on the street awaiting BSM's approach, then how come Eagle didnt see her on the street?

Neither Eagle nor Lave went any further back than the side door of the club, any couple in the shadows past the printing office would not be seen by them.

[Michael W Richards]

Neither Eagle nor Lave went any further back than the side door of the club, any couple in the shadows past the printing office would not be seen by them.

Why would she then move from a discreet location to one that is almost on the street Jon, assuming as many do that she was soliciting at the time?

Lynn, if you use my example you will note that the man I suggest carries some authority with him on this evening as a Security Man, and if she is there to meet someone from the club, she would feel comfortable at first being spoken to by a man associated with the club. What if though this thug suggested taking her back to where Jon suggests while she waits, treating her like some desperate street whore. The way she is dressed, her attention to details, suggests to me that she intended to be treated like a lady that night, and since she is a street wise woman, she might be a little caustic dissuading her would be client. Which leads to insulted drunk surly man....(much like Israels BSM perhaps, but IN the passageway and with the club that night), and a momentary insanity that cause him to lash out at the woman with untempered violence, due to his state of being at the time. Someone who gets mean and dangerous when drunk. She drops, he stands there, and people associated with the club jump in to control the damage. He is taken through the side door, dumps his knife in the soapy sink water and is shown out the front door as the activity back inside the gates is heating up. Total elapsed time from approach to departure...what, maybe 2 or 3 minutes tops?

Think about the guy seen cleaning a knife in the alley south of the club shortly thereafter.

The men of the club are gathered around the woman discussing how to present this to the police, which they will soon have to fetch. They had little time and likely some anxious thoughts, which is why when the members are interviewed while in the yard at least 2 give statements that directly contradict Louis, Morris and Lave. But by that night the damage control went into high gear, by the presentation of a witness to an assault a few minutes before the murder that takes place outside the gates.

Ive said it before, if you take Israels story baseline and relocate the altercation to the passageway it might make some real sense...he sees it when he leaves via the side door and sidesteps around the couple inside the gate, ...instead you have a primary suspect planted that is likely not a club attendee or member, a possible secondary assailant, a gentile thug with an antisemitic character, and a murder that was done by an outsider bringing his victim onto their property. Suddenly its a pretty good scenario for the boys at the club, dont you agree?

I dont trust the conspicuous good fortune.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

Your club conspiracy keeps getting more and more complex. At this point, about the only thing left is to somehow tie it in to the Kennedy assassination.

On the other hand, we have the possibility that Schwartz simply witnessed a fairly minor and relatively commonplace altercation and did his best to convey that to the police given the handicap of not speaking English.

I think a good dose of Occam's razor is needed here.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

I'm sorry but you've theorised way beyond the available evidence, and I've noticed in the past, on other threads, a tendency to do likewise...I'm sorry but you don't convince me

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Why would she then move from a discreet location to one that is almost on the street Jon, assuming as many do that she was soliciting at the time?

She would move when she is done with the client Michael.

Stride walks towards the gateway, at which point she stops as BS-man staggers past, he assaults her, she picks herself up and turns back towards the client still in the shadows...

I don't know Michael, but there is room for any number of scenario's.

[The Good Michael]

...instead you have a primary suspect planted that is likely not a club attendee or member, a possible secondary assailant, a gentile thug with an antisemitic character, and a murder that was done by an outsider bringing his victim onto their property. Suddenly its a pretty good scenario for the boys at the club, dont you agree?

I dont trust the conspicuous good fortune.

I see...then you have Wess telling Diemschitz to run up to Goulston, write some graffiti, then run over to Mitre Square, kill Eddowes (because conspirators had prearranged a meeting with her knowing the drunk would be out of the tank soon), then tear off something, anything from the victim, toss it down near the graffiti...bribe a cop so he doesn't see it earlier, and the Club is off the hook. This works for me...(where did I put that bottle?)

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

The club theory is perfectly plausible, or at least it was when I created it. Mike in some respects has turned it into a monster. I haven't noticed that anyone has added anything new of their own to the idea, at least nothing viable. But it's definitely a plausible theory. However, it was created on a foundation of ideas, not facts.

1) The idea that Wess and co. would be in defense mode. I can't imagine why they wouldn't have been, but it's still an idea, not a fact.

2) The idea that Schwartz was affiliated with the club. Again, a compelling and intriguing idea, but by no means a fact.

3) The observation that Pipeman (a clear gentile) and BS Man (an assumed anti-Semite) are a perfect distraction away from the Jewish members of the club, and thus must be a concoction. This observation is merely an extension of ideas 1 and 2.

Until the day comes when Schwartz is proven beyond doubt to have been affiliated with either the club or another of William Wess' concerns, there really is nothing left to discuss as far as this theory goes. It's gone as far as it can go without supporting facts.

My opinion is that it should have a thread of it's own for those who wish to rehash it, but should not clog up other threads. That's just one man's opinion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

1 and 2 are fine. I believe Schwartz was affiliated with the club in some capacity...member, entertainer (piano player?). It's also obvious that young, immigrant, Jewish anarchists would like to keep a low profile. Buy then....nothing. And yes, a thread of its own would be nice I suppose.

Mike