Did jack kill liz stride?

[lynn cates]

variables

Hello Tom.

"Until the day comes when Schwartz is proven beyond doubt to have been affiliated with either the club or another of William Wess' concerns, there really is nothing left to discuss as far as this theory goes. It's gone as far as it can go without supporting facts."

Agreed. And, of course, even IF a connection were found, that merely shifts the inductive weight of the argument and nothing is positively established.

And I am beginning to think that goes for all theorising about Liz. Too many variables.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thread

Hello Michael. Actually, there is at least one pre-existing thread for this discussion.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Agreed. And, of course, even IF a connection were found, that merely shifts the inductive weight of the argument and nothing is positively established.

I'm glad you pointed that out Lynn, affiliation does not mean complicity, especially in a conspiracy that has not even been established.
In idea is likely all that this scenario will ever be.

[Michael W Richards]

What Ive been suggesting is not a possible solution at all, its an example of how the theorizing I get so chastised for works within the known evidence. Its a hypothetical scenario where the questionable elements of the known evidence are set aside in favor of some reasonable alternatives. Ripper interruptions or secondary assailants after BSM are not reasonable, because they are not indicated within that same known evidence. There is no evidence for either of those "theories" but apparently they are broadly believed anyway, leading one to conclude that in the matter of Liz Strides death only certain acceptable theories are subject to open discussions here. Which I believe is contrary to the nature of this venue. As long as an idea makes some sense it should be explored, and a connection between Wess and Schwartz although not damning in and of itself is a real possibility....who translated for Schwartz anyway,...it would explain reluctance of the police to air the story at the Inquest, and when several members of the club and one outsider provide statements that corroborate each other as far as timings and directly contradict what Eagle, Lave and Diemshutz stated...one needs to assess who among the witnesses would be impacted by the discovery of the body. Those parties could very understandably have controlled their response to the disaster to prevent the clubs closure...which would have happened if substantive evidence was there to show the murderer was from that club.

Sure, that can be called a conspiracy, just like most Boards of Directors control what information related to their operations will be provided to the authorities when faced with corruption scandals.

When people who used to argue against these ideas change to claiming them as their own, I know they are considering these kinds of issues.

When anyone can prove that the notion that Jack the Ripper was interrupted with Liz Stride and went on to murder again in Mitre Square is not simply a full blown THEORY, then Ill stop considering alternative answers that also fit...until that time, surely open discussion should be allowed.

If anyone believes that any of these crimes will be solved by the miraculous production of key evidence some day in the future, your wasting your time. It will require a story to connect any dots and answer all the related issues concisely.

Since Ive been dealing with storylines about these crimes ever since Ive began this study, ...with tons of fence sitting and speculation from the people most learned about the crimes, ...maybe its time we stop pretending that Jack the Ripper killing Liz Stride is whats indicated by the evidence. It isnt...never was...and never has been. Theorists have created that link, not the facts.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom.

"Until the day comes when Schwartz is proven beyond doubt to have been affiliated with either the club or another of William Wess' concerns, there really is nothing left to discuss as far as this theory goes. It's gone as far as it can go without supporting facts."

Agreed. And, of course, even IF a connection were found, that merely shifts the inductive weight of the argument and nothing is positively established.

And I am beginning to think that goes for all theorising about Liz. Too many variables.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. Variables can be created to anything. Most variables I've seen for any number of elements of the Stride case are factually incorrect (and thus not really a variable, i.e. the blunt knife nonsense) or are statistically improbable. Eliminating these give a much clearer picture of what happened. However, some things will never be more than guesswork.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

being honest

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Any other answer would have been a bit less than honest.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sightings

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I am thinking of variables like the purported Liz sightings--one bloke or many?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I am thinking of variables like the purported Liz sightings--one bloke or many?

Cheers.
LC

They certainly could not all have been the same man. But I know what you mean. The value of the earlier sightings is that we find Stride in or outside of a number of pubs through the night and in some of those instances the men are not the same. So she was not on a 'date', she was soliciting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Question: If Liz Stride had been as claimed, "working among the Jews for some weeks" leading up to that last night, would she be likely to go out soliciting at a club populated by Jewish men of the same area? Would she risk being seen prostituting herself by a legitimate client or a friend of one? This woman did have a history of legitimate work in London, ran a coffee house, charwoman, ...is it probable that if she found she had the need to sell herself that she would try and seek out customers who werent likely to also be legitimate clients, endangering that employment?

Is it probable that the Jews among whom she had been working were also Jews who attended a Club with anarchist sympathies? If not, then the endangering of her employment doesn't come into question, does it?

[Bridewell]

They certainly could not all have been the same man.

Why is this a certainty?

But I know what you mean. The value of the earlier sightings is that we find Stride in or outside of a number of pubs through the night and in some of those instances the men are not the same.

Tom, I only know of The Bricklayers and The Beehive. Were there others?

So she was not on a 'date', she was soliciting.

I think she probably was, but I don't see that evidence of a woman visiting more than one pub on the same evening constitutes evidence of soliciting!


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Why is this a certainty?


Tom, I only know of The Bricklayers and The Beehive. Were there others?

soliciting!

The Queens Head

[Tom_Wescott]

Why is this a certainty?


Tom, I only know of The Bricklayers and The Beehive. Were there others?

I think she probably was, but I don't see that evidence of a woman visiting more than one pub on the same evening constitutes evidence of soliciting!


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The ones you mentioned (except for Beehive; that was Edward Spooner), Queens Head, King George IV, and outside the Berner Street Club, where they served beer, albeit without a license. Men's clubs were a great place for a girl to pick up custom, although I don't know Liz was trying to do that when she was murdered. I'm sure you'd agree that's a good number of establishments for one night. As for it being a certainty that she was with different men that evening, nothing is certain, but the alternative would be that she was with one man who periodically changed clothes and modified his looks with make-up to appear different ages. A known prostitute being seen hanging outside of pubs and often in the company of different men is evidence of soliciting. As for where Stride worked for the Jews, when women of F&D Street said they worked for the Jews it typically meant they cleaned for the Rothschild Building near them. Both Stride and Eddowes likely cleaned there at the same time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Is confusing.

Hello Tom. Thanks.

But then one must deal with "clerkly man."

As Inspector Sidney Wang might observe, "Is confusing."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

loggerheads

Hello Colin.

"Is it probable that the Jews among whom she had been working were also Jews who attended a Club with anarchist sympathies?"

She most likely charred for the observant Jews on a given Sabbath. But they were at loggerheads with the anarchists.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Rothschild Building

Hello Tom. Was the Rothschild Building on Fashion st?

Cheers.
LC