Two

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning all

Something has been nagging away all night. A possibility not yet mentioned.

As per my last post, I am convinced that both accounts suggest that BSM was walking in the same direction as Schwartz and stopped to talk to Liz (who probably propositioned him). As he was coming from a different direction its improbable that Pipeman and BSM were known to each other.

If they were, logic dictates that BSM would have come from the Board house or the Nelson Pub…180 degree change of angle.

However clearly there must have been doubt in Schwartz mind about who shouted what and to whom. As in the police statement it clearly says: “Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other”.

This suggests to me that Abberline was also not clear about what Schwartz meant and pressed him on the matter…..something like “were the two men together?”

So all we have in both accounts is someone shouting and a quarrel. And the probability that someone shouted ‘Lipski’.

So what if the shout of ‘Lipski’ wasn’t a warning or aimed at Schwartz or Pipeman but simply part of the quarrel?

What if the shout was not aimed at Schwartz or Pipeman but was aimed at LIZ Stride?

What if during the quarrel Liz said something like ‘ Get your filthy hands off me Lipski!” to which BSM replied “LIPSKI!!!” grabbed her by the shoulders and forced her into the yard in a rage at being insulted he drew his knife and cut her throat…

Of course Schwartz only describes Liz screaming three times but he describes them stopping and talking but does not hear what they say so we can presume that he only hears the louder elements of the quarrel.

Anyway another possibility…

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Schwartz never did say that BS Man called out to Pipeman. And even then, it would just be a guess on Schwartz's part.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes I do appreciate this Tom. Schwartz was clearly confused by what happened.

However, I’m trying to deal with the basic underlying conundrums of the two-recorded events.

The simple fact of the matter is that Pipeman and BSM either new each other or they did not? And given the FACTS of the two accounts ie BSM was heading down Berner Street from Commercial Road, in which time Schwartz must have had plenty of time to access the situation, he did NOT, he did NOT see BSM communicate with Pipeman.

So either there was a MAJOR conspiracy theory, with BSM and Pipeman working together…which would have taken time....or there was NOT….

And logic dictates that Schwartz made a mistake, somewhere in his panic, he miss read the situation and ran!

Because if BSM and Pipeman were connected then BSM would have come from the same direction as Pipeman….simples dot com

He didn’t

Pirate

It would be interesting to know whether Schwartz's statement was given in Yiddish or in Hungarian or Polish. Im assuming Goldstein spoke only Yiddish?.....Is that something you could confirm Tom?

If Wess provided Israels translation in addition to Goldstein's, just wondering if he speaks 3 or 4 languages, or 2.

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

I think I'm right in saying that the description of Schwartz as a Hungarian comes only from the reports in the Star, not from the police records. I think that makes it a bit more plausible that there could have been a misunderstanding.

Correctomundo.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Schwartz's National Origins

Hi, Chris, thanks.

If you look at the map, the area towards Galicia is a possibility; it borders both Hungary & Poland.

It was an area of fluctuating borders; Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary until WWI, then much of it became Poland.

I guess it's possible that the police might not have been too particular in their foreign geography, but I would still think Schwartz must have had some kind of papers, don't you?

Thanks again, Archaic

[Chris]

Did Schwartz the witness ever name his actual town of origin, or just "Hungary"?

It seems like the police would at least have asked him for his papers in order to confirm his identity, wouldn't they?

I think I'm right in saying that the description of Schwartz as a Hungarian comes only from the reports in the Star, not from the police records. I think that makes it a bit more plausible that there could have been a misunderstanding.

[Archaic]

Schwartz in the Records

Regarding the Holborn hairdresser John Schwartz, I think after further discussion it was agreed that his original name was Jacob, not Israel (just like Jacob/John Pizer), that he had been in the Holborn area since 1881, and that he married in late 1889:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=804&page=5

I think the Israel Schwartz who is known to have lived in the immediate neighbourhood from at least 1890 onwards (until his death in 1936) - his earliest known address being in Brunswick Street - is a strong candidate. Particularly as he is the only Israel Schwartz in Ancestry's index of the whole 1891 census. He also fits the bill in one other respect - according to family information he spoke Yiddish all his life, and in his old age he was barely able to communicate with his English-speaking grandson. (But unfortunately there seems to be no family tradition that he witnessed a Ripper murder.)

The only definite discrepancy is that he was born in Poland/Russia, not Hungary.

The problem is that it's going to be very difficult to prove beyond doubt that any candidate is the right Israel Schwartz. The only really tangible thing we know about the witness is that he lived at 22 Ellen Street immediately after the Stride murder. The hope would have to be that he stayed there for a year or two, and left some record that would identify him with the known Israel Schwartz (d. 1936) or someone else. Several people have looked for such a record without success, and I think it's fair to say there is none in any of the obvious places. But maybe with luck one may turn up in the future.

Hi, Chris, thank you for that info about Schwartz.

But I'm thinking that the fact that Israel Schwartz came from Poland/Russia rather than from Hungary is a problem...

Most of Poland was under Tsarist rule, and Hungary was part of the Dual Monarch of Austria-Hungary under the Hapsburg Emperors.

Even though precise national borders sometimes fluctuated over the years due to politics & war, particularly the borders of Poland, I'm not sure how any one could mix up the two Empires.

>>Here's a good map of the region c.1910: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...ngary_1911.jpg

Did Schwartz the witness ever name his actual town of origin, or just "Hungary"?

It seems like the police would at least have asked him for his papers in order to confirm his identity, wouldn't they?

Thanks again & best regards, Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz never did say that BS Man called out to Pipeman. And even then, it would just be a guess on Schwartz's part.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

How could Schwartz know if they knew each other? They may have, they may not have. Nothing occurred on the street to allow Schwartz to say without reservation that they knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

But surely if Schwartz claimed that BSM shouted 'Lipski' to Pipeman then there is a suggestion that they were working together or knew each other?

If he wasn't certain they new each other then surely the inferance would be that BSM was shouting at him/Schwartz?

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

How could Schwartz know if they knew each other? They may have, they may not have. Nothing occurred on the street to allow Schwartz to say without reservation that they knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

The police statement clearly states:

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

Why or how could BSM shout to someone? if he doesnt know them or know that they are there...It's that that does not make sense.

And if they do indeed know each other...HOW?

BSM, comes from an unrelated totally different direction from pipeman.

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Pirate,

Whether or not it makes more sense to you to have Pipeman yelling, the fact is that it was BS Man. Schwartz told this to Abberline repeatedly. Schwartz was taken off guard by BS Man's treatment of Stride, but what 'spooked' him was Pipeman's sudden emergence immediately followed by the yelling of 'Lipski' by BS Man and then Pipeman running towards him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Tom

The important thing here is that it’s possible for Schwartz description of BSM to be of a Jewish person. Then the cry by pipeman ‘Lipski”, made in the Star account, could have a totally different interpretation to that given in the police statement.

Clearly as you say the Police statement is the one that we must give president too.

However there are a number of things that worry me about this:

Firstly: If BSM shouted to Pipeman, it clearly suggests that they were working together. However both accounts (Star and Police) have BSM walking from a totally different direction before talking to Stride..Which is far more consistent with Stride approaching BSM for business. If there was a connection between BSM and Pipeman, then BSM wound have had to of done a fairly big circuit around the bloke having left Pipeman..Plus Schwartz clearly says he can not be sure they were together, was he pushed into saying something he did not mean?

It just does NOT make sense.

The Star account on the other hand makes far more sense if you have Pipeman also witness the attack but from the public House. Which as we know is on the same side of the road as BSM and Liz. He sees BSM (Of Jewish origin) grab LIZ, see’s the knife drawn from a pocket and shouts ‘Murder!’ by a ‘Jew” or simply ‘Lipski!”

Something certainly spooked Schwartz enough to make him run a long way and the above scenario not only makes some sense but accounts, as you correctly suggest, for the bruising…

It would also leave a very good witness for Anderson and Swanson to use in a later ID. And a witness that may not be keen on dobbing in a fellow Jew…

Just a thought,

of course as you say it doesn’t fit the police version of events.

Yours Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

The Bruising to the shoulders

Hi Pirate,

I was not aware of the presence of white Jews in Ethiopia. However, these were not the immigrants one found in the East End, so it really doesn't apply here.
If you read your copy of 'Ultimate', you'll see not only Swanson's summary (we don't have a police statement) but also an exchange with Abberline (who interrogated Schwartz and composed the actual police report) that makes it very clear that BS Man was the person who yelled 'Lipski'. Certainly you'd agree this overwrites the Star report of Pipeman yelling?

Smezenen (Gazundheit!),

We do not know what caused the single bruise to Stride's chest, but I can't see it coming from a fall to the ground. We do know what caused the bruising to her shoulders because the doctors were able to make out finger marks. What is interesting here is that the Star report has BS Man grabbing Stride by the shoulder, which fits in with the bruising. Swanson's summary gives us no detail of where she was grabbed. The bruising was over both shoulders, so BS Man would have had to turn Stride around, grab her by both shoulders, squeeze very tightly for a period of time before throwing her to the ground. This is not impossible, as Stride was older and weak and would have bruised relatively easily, so a good tight squeeze for a few seconds might have done the trick.
When reading Swanson's report, most of us probably imagine BS Man grabbing Stride by the arm, because that's the most normal method. But Schwartz specifically told the Star that she was grabbed by the shoulder, and later the doctors would discover this distinct bruising. It could be coincidence, but since the bruising occurred right around the time of death, I'd say there's a decent change BS Man afflicted it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Welcome aboard Smezenen

I don’t see why anyone would dismiss your conclusion. Not enough information to be certain, seems a very reasonable statement and one only to often faced when examining this case.

I would however be interest in your opinion. Is it possible, given both accounts above (Star and police), that Schwartz witnessed a brief struggle between BSM and Stride. And in your opinion could BSM have been Strides murderer?

Many thanks for a well considered and interesting post.

Yours Pirate