Two

The fact of the matter is that you don’t need a conspiracy as Schwartz story makes perfect sense.
Pirate

That premise is your problem Pirate....his story beginning with his explanation for even being there doesnt make perfect sense. Its not plausible that his wife would take 12 hours to move what they owned. Immigrants in that area for the most part owned some clothes, and maybe a stick or 2 of furniture. He had been gone all afternoon, and was an Immigrant Jew at quarter to 1am standing outside a club for Immigrant Jews after a meeting that drew some 200 people.

From the start, there are problems. Like why Fanny saw or heard none of this if in fact it occurred on the street near her door.

If he was a member, attended the meeting, hung out with others like they did after many meetings prior to this one..smoking and chatting in the yard...then his story works...and doesnt alter anyones creds....like suggesting Fanny just must have missed it...even though she says she was at her door when it was going on.

The only problem for the club is....in that version, the killer is already in the yard with Liz at 12:45....the yard that Eagle says was empty at 12:40am....and Morris didnt see Liz or anyone else either....in my opinion, conveniently.

Cheers Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

What doesn’t make sense to me about a conspiracy theory is how they managed to concoct a story that didn’t make any errors.

The fact of the matter is that you don’t need a conspiracy as Schwartz story makes perfect sense.

If they had of made it up the chances are that they would have gotten something wrong and at some point someone would have grassed them all. Either deliberately or accidentally.

And Schwartz story holds true either before or after Fanny Mortimer goes in or out her house.

The only thing that puzzles me is what Fanny Mortimer was doing standing out side for ten minutes on a cold autumn evening?

I suspect she had a purpose, either a sneaky dram of alcohol or more likely a pipe, which doesn’t take ten minutes to smoke.

All the best

Pirate

Sorry Pirate that I referred to comments made by smezenen when they were actually yours....just noticed that.

I think that the situation works the best without any altercation outside the gates.....it places men in the yard which under normal circumstances there should be based on the neighbors, it allows for Brown to see what he saw nowhere near the gates, and it allows for Fanny to have seen nothing near the gates, and it allows for Liz to already be in the yard near 12:45am...which works with Blackwell's estimates. All Inquest statements work without Schwartz's outside the gates positioning.

Place the altercation inside the yard, and BSM leaving just after scaring off Pipeman and Schwartz and killing Liz, and you have the footsteps heard by Fanny. Put a gentile in BSM's shoes and you have justification for Lipski as an insulting anti-semetic remark....and place a former boyfriend who is a gentile in BSM's broadshoulders....and you have a potential for a very recently jilted lover coming upon his ex inside a yard of a Socialist Jew club looking as if she is waiting for a date. A few choice words between them...and you have a split second decision of choke, pull off balance, slice while falling, and split. All which works with the doctors conjecture and cut estimates, the single cut, the fact the killer has obviously left before Diemshutz blocks the gates, and Liz's appearance and hand contents.

Cheers PJ

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob

Trusting all is well with you. And yes your timing does work but you stretch to the Maximum the timing for Liz Strides murder.

I don’t believe that Liz is with the same man 12.30 that PC Smith witnesses. She is clearly doing business in the area of Dutfeild yard. And Schwartz story clearly suggests that he followed BSM down the road behind him when he stopped to talk, or was propositioned, by LIZ. And my reasoning is that if Schwartz followed BSM it is unlikely he had any connection to Pipeman or Liz.

And while the timing is tight, you said yourself that Fanny Mortimer has a 5-minute leeway. If the incident happens after Fanny goes inside and we have a ten minute gap then it’s possible for Schwartz story to fit if Deimschutz is hot on the tail of Schwartz and Pipeman. Although 5 minutes is enough time.

We also have a better explanation why JtR decided not to mutilate Strides body, and to be honest I find her murder closer to 12.55 a more realistic one, given the fresh flowing blood described.

But as you say its possible Liz was dead when Fanny left the house.

All the best

Pirate

Here is my interpretation of the timing:

12:30 – Elizabeth Stride and a man (possibly the broad shouldered man) are standing across the street from Dutfield’s Yard, as witnessed by PC. Smith.

12:40 - Morris Eagle returns to the International Workingmen’s Educational Club and sees nobody in Dutfield’s Yard.

12:45 - The broad shouldered man attacks Stride in the gateway of Dutfield’s Yard. (Witnessed by Schwartz) Pipeman also leaves the scene, either going home, or like Schwartz, not wanting to get involved in a quarrel.

12:45-6 - The broad shouldered man murders Stride, then leaves immediately, fearing discovery.

12:47 - Fanny Mortimer hears the heavy footsteps of the killer leaving the scene of the crime, but wrongly assumes it is a Police Constable.

12:47-12:57 - Mortimer stands in her doorway for ten minutes and sees nothing.

1 AM- Mortimer hears Diemschutz’s cart drive by, and the body is discovered.

note: all the times are obviously only estimates, so any of the above events might have taken place 5 minutes or so either earlier or later than stated by witnesses.


Rob House

I think if Schwartz was an authentic account, and his locations and times were roughly accurate, thats a brilliant proposal Rob.

I dont think having Schwartz's story actually occur inside the yard would affect the outcomes greatly either....which is where I lean on that issue. I also believe this BSM man may be Kidney.

Sorry to repeat Smez...I wasnt sure that weve established that Fanny was at her door continuously during that period, from 12:45 until almost 1am...which I was alluding to.

Because if she was, Schwartz's time was wrong, or he lied. Which ties into James Brown being the 12:45 Inquest witness... having seen nothing near the gates of the yard.

All the best.

[robhouse]

Here is my interpretation of the timing:

12:30 – Elizabeth Stride and a man (possibly the broad shouldered man) are standing across the street from Dutfield’s Yard, as witnessed by PC. Smith.

12:40 - Morris Eagle returns to the International Workingmen’s Educational Club and sees nobody in Dutfield’s Yard.

12:45 - The broad shouldered man attacks Stride in the gateway of Dutfield’s Yard. (Witnessed by Schwartz) Pipeman also leaves the scene, either going home, or like Schwartz, not wanting to get involved in a quarrel.

12:45-6 - The broad shouldered man murders Stride, then leaves immediately, fearing discovery.

12:47 - Fanny Mortimer hears the heavy footsteps of the killer leaving the scene of the crime, but wrongly assumes it is a Police Constable.

12:47-12:57 - Mortimer stands in her doorway for ten minutes and sees nothing.

1 AM- Mortimer hears Diemschutz’s cart drive by, and the body is discovered.

note: all the times are obviously only estimates, so any of the above events might have taken place 5 minutes or so either earlier or later than stated by witnesses.


Rob House

[Jeff Leahy]

Also interesting that Fanny in at least one account says she was at her door from around 12:45 until almost 1am. What she didnt see if thats true is more telling than what others say they saw.

Cheers all

Hi Michael

I thought that we had already established earlier in the thread via the ‘wheelie bin’ experiment that Fanny Mortimer could have stood at her door at 12.45 for ten minutes and seen nothing.

In fact the only thing that does not make sense is why she did not see ‘Pipeman’ on the opposite side of the road outside the board school. And its there that I am vague as I don’t know if there was somewhere where he could have concealed himself but I think this unlikely.

So Fanny does go out at 12.45 stands only a matter of yards from Liz Stride but sees nothing because Liz is doing business just out of sight in Dutfeilds Yard.

As Fanny goes inside BSM turns the corner and is the only person visible in the street until followed approx 30 secs to a minute later by Schwartz. It takes only about three minutes to walk from Commercial Road to Dutfeild yard. Where Liz comes out of the shadows having heard BSM approach. She freshens her breath with a mint before she approaches a potential client. “ Allo sir lookin for company?’

BSM is looking for company but this is not the sort of client she wants. ‘ No not tonight Sir’

An argument ensues. Schwartz is unable to understand the argument as he approaches because he speaks little English but thinks better of getting involved. Starts to cross the road where he gets a better view inside Dutfeild yard of Liz.

So it’s here that the two accounts the Star and the police part company. However what does not make sense is pipeman being outside the Board house? For a start Schwartz would have had a clear view of him, as would Fanny Mortimer, as he came down Berner Street. Which he didn’t as Pipeman took him by surprise.

And why would BSM turn and shout Lipski at a person who had just crossed the road to avoid him, when his full attention would be on the Quarrel between him and Liz Stride.

If Pipeman is outside the booardhouse on the West side of the Street then Schwartz natural escape route is straight back up Berner Street towards Commercial road. Any route down Berner Street or Fairclough street takes him towards not away from Pipeman.

So logic dictates that the police statement is wrong. Far more logical to have Pipeman coming down Fairclough Street where he is a ‘wheelie bin’ safely out of site, until he turns the corner taking Schwartz by surprise.

Pipeman hears screams and an argument but as Tom Wescott correctly pointed out in an earlier post, he cant see BSM or Liz just inside Dutfeild Yard as they quarrel. However he can see Schwartz and probably assumed he was ‘Involved’ so either he shouts ‘Lipski’ and approaches Schwartz or as said before ‘Lipski’ is part of the quarrel between Liz and BSM.

Of course its possible, as C.D. says, that BSM shouts at Schwartz but I’m not convinced he pays much attention to him while in the middle of the fight with Liz. And Schwartz by his own admission was confused.

So for me the Star version of Pipeman being at the pub or turning left from Fairclough Street makes the most sense.

Also if Pipeman hears a commotion but can not see Liz or BSM he also has to cross the road to see whats going on which might have been interpreted by Schwartz as approaching him.

As Pipeman possibly gives chase to Schwartz who he believes up to no good, Deimschutz turns left from Commercial street at 1 am into Berner Street, but does not see Schwartz and Pipeman disappear down Berner Street which is poorly lit. He doesnt see Liz Stride who by this time is having her throat cut inside Dutfeild Yard.

And he does not see BSM who must have found an escape route through Dutfeild Yard and out the back. Or even possibly still been inside the yard when he enters.

Just a thought

Yours Pirate

[Archaic]

Questions About Bruising

I have a couple of questions about Bruising.

If Liz was "manhandled" in some way, say by having her arm jerked & going down on the pavement, but 10 minutes later she was lying dead with her throat cut, would the new bruises have time to appear?

I'm asking because as we all know, sometimes you bang yourself and it takes a little while for the bruise to form. I know she had bruises on her chest, but I assume they were inflicted with much greater force.
Bruises which occur over a bony area form more rapidly, and this seems likely to be case with Liz's chest bruises.

>>Do minor new bruises cease developing when death occurs shortly afterward, especially death by exsanguination?

Do all bruises cease developing when death occurs?

Thanks, Archaic

Everybody is aware that Liz had an arrest history that included D & D's and I believe at least one registered Assault by Kidney... right?

Who says the bruises were from after midnight...or even that night? "Fresh" is a relative term.

Also interesting that Fanny in at least one account says she was at her door from around 12:45 until almost 1am. What she didnt see if thats true is more telling than what others say they saw.

Cheers all

[smezenen]

Seems there are more possibilities to not produce a bruise than there are to produce one.

[Archaic]

Knocked To the Ground?

Regarding Broad-Shouldered Man knocking the woman to the ground, perhaps as she went down she managed to end up in a more or less "crouched" position where she still had one or both feet under her, and that's why there aren't more bruises.
Her long skirts would have concealed her precise physical position from Schwartz's view, especially as it he witnessed this scene at night.

I would imagine that an impoverished Whitechapel prostitute would unfortunately have been struck by other men in the past, and might know that it's safest to go down immediately in order to avoid a serious beating.

So BS Man might have truly have grabbed, struck, or shoved her, but perhaps she instinctively sank to the ground just to save herself from further abuse- in which case it was more of a "controlled" fall, which might not have left visible bruises other than where he grabbed her.

Schwartz's statement that she "screamed three times but not very loudly" would tend to support this, because it suggests that she was not screaming loudly in order to summon strangers to her aid, but "screaming" just enough to convince Broad-Shouldered Man to desist.

Best regards, Archaic

[smezenen]

Welcome aboard Smezenen

I don’t see why anyone would dismiss your conclusion. Not enough information to be certain, seems a very reasonable statement and one only to often faced when examining this case.

I would however be interest in your opinion. Is it possible, given both accounts above (Star and police), that Schwartz witnessed a brief struggle between BSM and Stride. And in your opinion could BSM have been Strides murderer?

Many thanks for a well considered and interesting post.

Yours Pirate

PJ,
Since her dead body is found about 15 minutes later I think its very likely that BSM killed her. I believe what Schwartz told police is what he believes he saw.
I wouldn't completly trust the press in any story. Then as now the press industery will spin the story to create as much sensationalism as possible in order to sell more papers. Proof comes when we see reporters faking JTR letters and sending them to their editors to be published in the paper. The basic facts are there in the story but sometimes you have to dig them out from under the papers agenda. in other words take the news papers facts for what they are and only trust the basic information you find in them. when they contradict the police report I tend to put more confidence in the police report becouse they dont have the same agenda.


here is my SPECULATION on BSM as strides killer.
If BSM is JTR and Schwartz saw him with Stride it may explain why he kills Stride and abandons the kill before doing any mutilation. He is too far into his actions to stop becouse he has already acosted her. He realizes someone has seen him and needs to get away but he cant leave her breathing becouse she can identify him. He only killed her to get rid of a witness then went looking for a safer place and new victim.

[smezenen]

Smezenen (Gazundheit!),

We do not know what caused the single bruise to Stride's chest, but I can't see it coming from a fall to the ground. We do know what caused the bruising to her shoulders because the doctors were able to make out finger marks. What is interesting here is that the Star report has BS Man grabbing Stride by the shoulder, which fits in with the bruising. Swanson's summary gives us no detail of where she was grabbed. The bruising was over both shoulders, so BS Man would have had to turn Stride around, grab her by both shoulders, squeeze very tightly for a period of time before throwing her to the ground. This is not impossible, as Stride was older and weak and would have bruised relatively easily, so a good tight squeeze for a few seconds might have done the trick.
When reading Swanson's report, most of us probably imagine BS Man grabbing Stride by the arm, because that's the most normal method. But Schwartz specifically told the Star that she was grabbed by the shoulder, and later the doctors would discover this distinct bruising. It could be coincidence, but since the bruising occurred right around the time of death, I'd say there's a decent change BS Man afflicted it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,
Agreed about the marks over her shoulder, I just didnt have time the other night to get too far into the reports and was taking a generalized aproach due to the vagueness of most of the descriptions.

I believe they where made by BSM, the marks over the shoulder when he grabs her and the mark on her chest when he pushes her or hits her in the chest to knock her to the ground. No bruising on the back becouse she lands on her butocks which is a fatty part and more cushioned by clothing.

Another possibility as I read your post. You write "BS Man would have had to turn Stride around, grab her by both shoulders, squeeze very tightly for a period of time before throwing her to the ground." In this scenario she would be falling face first and maybe she strikes her chest against something on the ground producing the chest bruise.

Hi Pirate,

If you shout at someone, you are generally looking at them. I think the implication here is that Schwartz saw the BS man looking at him when the shout of Lipski was made.

c.d.

As I recall there is a quote that states the "Lipski" was directed at him when he looked back over his shoulder.... having passed the couple while Liz was on the ground and he was apparently helping her up.

That means he didnt look straight ahead and mind his own business as he passed or after, and thats why the call was directed at him....I wonder if "theatrical" means dressed in a manner that was overtly Jewish, like a man playing a Jewish man on stage.

I still suggest that the street probably isnt where this occurred,... if at all,....but....

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hi Pirate,

If you shout at someone, you are generally looking at them. I think the implication here is that Schwartz saw the BS man looking at him when the shout of Lipski was made.

c.d.