Two

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't know how it is in your parts of the world, but one observation I made a long time ago is that here in the states, sometime in the 50's, houses started being built with back porches instead of front porches. Blaim on it TV, but people started becoming more insular around that time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

HI Jane,

Its no different to the front porches that were in use all over the neighbourhoods I grew up in....everyone was out at night...smoking, talking, reading, just "being".....I think Fanny might well have been doing anyone of those except talking....unless to herself.

I think one of the contentious parts for me is the status of the yard after a meeting on Saturday night that held 200 or so people. Its 12:40...Eagle returns and enters a yard that Lave says he was also in at 12:40, and by the "street"...not only dont they see each other in a yard that was around 8-9 feet across from Club Wall to the Cottages, they see no one else. There is no one left onsite save the 28 men upstairs. Not one using the privvy or having a pipe..not one getting some air....not one lingering around taking a break from the song and probable drink....not one having a private conversation.

It seems that between around 11:30pm and 12:40am, approximately 173 people leave the club and the yard. And just one returns...Eagle. But all the remaining men onsite are not only indoors, but 1 flight up from the street.

The neighbors had no recollection problems regarding similar after meeting Saturday nights and "low men and women in the yard after 1am"....so if this night was as described by Eagle, Lave and Schwartz, it was rare in the clubs history.

Cheers Janie....all.

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

It was really the norm at that time to stand in doorways of houses, or sit on the doorstep for a great part of the day and evening, for several reasons - odd as it may seem to us.

The routine lasted well into the 1950's and even the 1960's in East London, (and most urban communities throughout the country) when they began to knock down the rows of terraced houses and replace them with high rise flats.

There were quite a few reasons they did it.

Many would just stand nattering with neighbours to pass the time because there was generally much a greater community spirit than now and they took a much greater interest in helping (or gossiping about) their neighbours.

That's not univerally true of course, because there is a still a good community spirit in many areas in this country and around the world, but it was a well known trait of the Cockney that they helped one another out in times of trouble and shared fortune, both good and bad. Standing on doorsteps apparently helped this along.

With no TV and radio it was more interesting to see what was going on in the street, rather than sit staring at the four walls, your partner, 15 kids and a scraggy moggy.

Many working class households didn't have a clock or watch, so standing in the doorway and observing the street was a way of finding out the time and keeping abreast of the news and gossip in the community.

The houses were often very overcrowded and dirty and it was far more pleasant standing or sitting outside.

Having the door open prevented damp and mould from forming and aired the place out.

Obviously it was done far less in the winter months.

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Jeff Leahy]

well as her door way opened directly onto the street. She was either standing on the street. Half on the street, half in the house, or in her own house.

All of which changes drastically her angle of view or events.

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm suggesting nothing. She stated she was in her doorway.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Fanny's doorway opened directly on to the street..

are you suggesting she had her door open and was deliberately letting the heat out?

Still seems odd

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

I wasn’t trying to pin anything on Fanny. Just remarking it was odd that she stood outside her house for ten minutes on a damp autumn evening.

Fanny wasn't standing outside her house, she was standing in the doorway. She witnessed Leon Goldstein who recognized himself in her statement as it appeared in the papers. This makes her about the only corroborated witness on the street in the time after 12:30am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

We will never know. But the police investigating probably covered the angles and gave these things due consideration. So we can only go by the police statement and press reports.

I wasn’t trying to pin anything on Fanny. Just remarking it was odd that she stood outside her house for ten minutes on a damp autumn evening.

Perhaps its only odd from my twentieth century perspective, perhaps she would find it odd that I choose to stay in all evening watching little glowing boxes with writing on them. I believe Don gave a lecture talking about MJK and Joe Barnett reading out loud. His point was very similar. We must remember that they were from a different age to our own and we might miss the obvious explanations without wearing a 19th century hat..

Perhaps as Michael suggested she was just taking in the smell? Or perhaps this was the closest thing she had to TV? Personally I have her smoking a pipe, but perhaps people only did that indoors at this time?

I guess it’s the sort of question best fired and Henry Allingham rather than a Ripper expert, and alas he has gone.

Cheers all

Pirate

[Roy Corduroy]

Fanny had nothing to hide or to gain by fabricating.

We don't know that. The killer might have been a friend of hers.

Roy

Fanny Mortimer did not appear at the inquest.

Not as suggestive as Schwartz not being asked to appear. Fannys initial statements show us that she had nothing to offer us regarding eye witness testimony other than Goldstein...and he is mentioned.

Fanny had nothing to hide or to gain by fabricating. Can the same be said of the Club members?

Cheers Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Maybe she was hiding something. Or someone. That's a mighty convenient bolt-hole she has there at Number 36. The back door opens into a yard and escape route. Since she was a no-show at inquest, the inevitable question arises - Was Mortimer the equivalent of a Hussy Hutchinson?

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

On the bold part above, because the night air had been freshened by the rain....which had ended around 11:30ish. In that neck of the woods, fresh air was rare.

Cheers again mate

Fanny Mortimer a health freak? Come on Michael you don't buy that do you..

Warmth and homely smell was surely a better virtue..

She was having a fag

Pirate

[Roy Corduroy]

Fanny Mortimer did not appear at the inquest.

Well yes, you would have thought they would have made up something better and more elaborate. For me it has a ring of truth...

But my point is that nothing actually proves he lied.

And as I said Fanny's story has its own problems not least why was she standing outside for ten minutes on a cold autumn evening?

cheers for your input

Pirate

On the bold part above, because the night air had been freshened by the rain....which had ended around 11:30ish. In that neck of the woods, fresh air was rare.

Cheers again mate

[Jeff Leahy]

That premise is your problem Pirate....his story beginning with his explanation for even being there doesnt make perfect sense. Its not plausible that his wife would take 12 hours to move what they owned. Immigrants in that area for the most part owned some clothes, and maybe a stick or 2 of furniture. He had been gone all afternoon, and was an Immigrant Jew at quarter to 1am standing outside a club for Immigrant Jews after a meeting that drew some 200 people.

Well yes, you would have thought they would have made up something better and more elaborate. For me it has a ring of truth...

But my point is that nothing actually proves he lied.

And as I said Fanny's story has its own problems not least why was she standing outside for ten minutes on a cold autumn evening?

cheers for your input

Pirate