Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[wigngown]

Personally, I don't think the Killer was in Company with the women before he murdered them. He waited in the shadows and took the opportunity when it presented itself. JtR was undoubtedly a cool, cunning and calculated killer who left little if anything to chance.

[Parker_Pyne79]

I think it was either the night watchman or Jack who was disturbed and fled.

[Karl]

You make an excellent point that isn't seen very often, especially in movies that have Michael Caine running around until he's out of breath, with a Victorian stopwatch, and declaring that it was possible, like JtR is in some kind of serial killer triathlon.

I suspect the reason that mini-series with Michael Caine had Aberline running till he's out of breath to cover the distance inside 40 minutes is that they made the same mistake I initially made: I traced the distance between Mitre Square and 40-42 Berner's street - which are about 4,7 km apart and would have to be covered at a jog at the very least to make the time. However, from old maps I see that Berner street crosses with Fairclough street and runs parallel with Batty street. Looking at Google Maps, that means that the old Berner street is now Henrique's street. The distance to Mitre Square is about a kilometre, easily covered in 15 minutes at a leisurely pace.

[c.d.]

"If Jack was buying Eddowes drinks earlier in the evening and chatting to her in a pub wouldn't he have been a bit worried about being seen in Kate's company if he was planning murder? I mean, if he was a local and there was a casual onlooker in the pub who knew either of them by sight Jack would then be done for."

Buying women drinks is not a crime. He might be a suspect but the police would have to have something to tie him to the crime. That in and of itself would not suffice.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Why?

Hello Rosella. Why would she go all the way to Mile End?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pegs

Hello Rivkah.

"I'm now very amused, and disgusted with myself for being amused, at the idea of a JtR who planned out the double event carefully, and yet forgot to allot enough time for the mutilation of the first victim."

I am more amused at trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

almost

Hello CD.

"I have always had a feeling that Jack might have been the one buying her drinks earlier in the evening and that they made an appointment for later."

Replace "Jack" with "someone," and we are in league.

Cheers.
LC

[Rosella]

If Jack was buying Eddowes drinks earlier in the evening and chatting to her in a pub wouldn't he have been a bit worried about being seen in Kate's company if he was planning murder? I mean, if he was a local and there was a casual onlooker in the pub who knew either of them by sight Jack would then be done for.

I just think he was an opportunist who must have lived near Aldgate at that time. Kate didn't fancy a good hiding from John Kelly so she was probably making her way towards the casual ward at Mile End when she and her killer met up, by chance.

[RivkahChaya]

Hello Rivkah,

I have always had a feeling that Jack might have been the one buying her drinks earlier in the evening and that they made an appointment for later.

c.d.

I have wondered that too, because she was so worried about time, but that seems to suggest that Stride wasn't a victim, if he already had an appointment with his victim for the night. So that means that meeting up with Eddowes wasn't the reason for hightailing it over to the Square.

On the other hand, if he planned on a double event, and made the appointment with Eddowes, why schedule them so close together? It seems an odd combination of poor and good planning. And yes, I know the same person can both plan well, and fail to plan (I've done it); it just seems wrong. He might forget something, but not when he was supposed to meet Eddowes-- who at any rate was probably running late.

I'm now very amused, and disgusted with myself for being amused, at the idea of a JtR who planned out the double event carefully, and yet forgot to allot enough time for the mutilation of the first victim.

[c.d.]

Hello Rivkah,

I have always had a feeling that Jack might have been the one buying her drinks earlier in the evening and that they made an appointment for later.

c.d.

[RivkahChaya]

Hi,

I think that the difference in distance and the time it would take to walk is misleading ... because unless Jack knew that he would meet someone in Mitre Square he would have just been meandering around, so not taking a direct route.

So, it could have taken him fifteen minutes, three hours, or even more.

You make an excellent point that isn't seen very often, especially in movies that have Michael Caine running around until he's out of breath, with a Victorian stopwatch, and declaring that it was possible, like JtR is in some kind of serial killer triathlon.

If it happened that JtR did luck into a second victim quickly, well, that's what happened, but I think someone needs to find a way to show that JtR walked to Mitre Square for some purpose other than seeking a victim, like he was heading home, unsated or not, and then ran into Eddowes unexpectedly. Of course, that would mean establishing either Eddowes or Stride's killer by other means, and then seeking to show how it made sense that the person who killed one, killed the other. As I understand it, Mitre Square wasn't a pick-up point, and it wasn't that Stride's killer would be headed there because it was a sure-fire place to find a victim. That would be another explanation for the killer going straight there, but since it wasn't, that explanation doesn't work.

Was Mitre Square on the way to some popular pick-up point that Stride's killer could have been headed to? He passed through it, and then realized that he had an opportunity in Eddowes. That I could see.

[Sleuth1888]

I'm a bit back on forth on this issue. At one time I thought that Stride was not killed by Jack the Ripper, but now my views have changed to the point where at this moment in time I am very much persuaded that Stride was a Ripper victim.

The coincidence of two murders at the height of the Ripper scare being done by two different people, is too improbable in my mind, although it could be possible.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Liz was in fact there that night to clean. How in the world would Jack know that from simply observing a single woman out by herself late at night? She does not have to be ACTIVELY soliciting to be approached by Jack. And once approached and engaged in conversation what would prevent Jack from saying I know a way you can make a little money that doesn't involve cleaning? We have absolutely no way of knowing what her response would be.

The bottom line is that making your Liz wasn't soliciting argument over and over proves nothing because she only needs to be approached by Jack and all bets are off.

c.d.

The thing here is cd that unless this Jack fellow was already on the club property when Liz steps into the passageway,.... (by virtue of everyone elses account except for Israels this likely happened just after PC Smith left because no-one else saw any activity on the street at all between 12:35 and 12:55/12:56...when Fanny sees Goldstein)...he would have had to have used the street unseen and then entered a dark passageway with an ajar kitchen door some 19 feet down the lane....looking for a victim?

It seems to me, and others, that there are a few things we can see fairly clearly about Pollys murder and Annies murder ...that they were chosen because it was dark early morning, that they were alone, and they were approachable by strangers because they were soliciting...again, these are the only 2 Canonicals that we have that kind of evidence for. We can see that the person who killed both...(because these 2 consecutive murders are by far the most similar in forensic terms, we can safely assume 1 killer), had some anatomical knowledge, some skills using a knife, and that he was seen by no-one as he picked up his prey.

Using just those few similarities it seems odd that from that point in time his skills sets are redefined and downplayed, as are his knife skills...his pattern and method and compulsions suddenly change.....and he becomes the uncontrollable stalking madman, with barely the skills of a butcher, and without any real goal besides simply killing women. To assume that Liz Strides killer left unsated,.... as is the basis for almost all the arguments for his then running off to Mitre to fully butcher someone...is to deny all the signs that he left her untouched of his own free will after a single cut.

The man that killed both Polly and Annie killed so he could facilitate what he desired most on those nights...to control, kill, and then mutilate a strange woman who was vulnerable and on her own. Her could kill effectively, and surely..cutting deep and twice, do it almost silently, cut them open to bleed out...and as they died, and with some skill,..he would excise internal organs located in the abdomen.

I wonder to this day why anyone would assume that Liz Strides murder was by that same man.

Cheers cd

[Sam Flynn]

I think that the difference in distance and the time it would take to walk is misleading ... because unless Jack knew that he would meet someone in Mitre Square he would have just been meandering around, so not taking a direct route.

You make a good point. In addition, once he'd got to the vicinity of Mitre Square, he'd have used up yet more time in seeking and securing* a suitable victim, unless Eddowes just happened to cross his path at precisely the right moment.

* I don't get the impression from Lawende and co's testimony that Eddowes and "Jack" had only just bumped into each other. The "pursuit" and "seduction" must have taken up a few minutes in itself.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think that the difference in distance and the time it would take to walk is misleading ... because unless Jack knew that he would meet someone in Mitre Square he would have just been meandering around, so not taking a direct route.

So, it could have taken him fifteen minutes, three hours, or even more.

So I dont believe that the vicinity argument is a viable one.

I would suggest that the differences in the actuall state of the corpse in relation to the others is the major element.

For that reason, and for others, I do not believe that Stride was murdered by JTR.

Best wishes.