Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Rosella]

There was singing in the club wasn't there, which could have masked any noise from the street like doors opening etc. Is a door opening a necessarily noisy event, anyway? Maybe slamming a door up the street might be. I believe it's far more likely to have been noises from the kitchen that startled Jack. There might have been male footsteps on the stair or near the side door, and so he decided to hop it, And perhaps the sound of a horse and cart coming nearer and nearer as well.

[John G]

Is it possible that the killer could have heard Mortimer open her door, and then tentatively walked to the front of the yard to investigate? He notices Mortimer on her doorstep-would this be possible given the relative positions of the club and Mortimer's residence?-and decides, cautiously, to delay mutilating Stride until she returns inside. However, Mortimer remains for 10 minutes-at least according to one account-and he's sufficiently spooked by this time that he decides to flee the scene (after all, during that ten minute period he risked being discovered at any time.)

[John G]

Yes I realise you were going along with John G Joshua, no problem. As an alternative to Mortimer scaring off the killer what about the killer being spooked by a noise emanating from the Club? In my opinion a much more likely scenario. Although as stated, I believe Deimshutz's arrival to have been the reason the killer was forced to flee the scene

Being spooked by noises emanating from the club is a possibility. Moreover, Mrs D claimed that she was in the ground floor kitchen with the window open for a significant period, so hearing her move about could have startled him.

[John G]

If that is the case how would the killer know that Mortimer was stood at her front door ?

He could have heard her opening the door, which may have startled him, especially if he was also on edge, i e. because of the noises emanating from the club and realising he risked being discovered at any time. However, you make a fair point about the position of Mortimer's property in relation to the club.

[Observer]

Brown's couple stood out of view to number 36 in Fairclough Street to the bottom, and right of the plan as we look at it

[Observer]

And is her house on the same side as the school? Wouldn't that have to put her outside her door in order to see the couple? She should have seen more.

Here you are Robert Mortimers house is number 36

[Robert St Devil]

Odd that domestic squabble wouldn't register on the radar of a woman ready to be ringside for a club row.

If the couple that Mortimer sees is the same one that Brown sees, then Brown didn't see Stride.
And is her house on the same side as the school? Wouldn't that have to put her outside her door in order to see the couple? She should have seen more.

[Observer]

True, but he also said they'd been talking there for 25 minutes, so they would have been there when Brown walked back from the shop with his dinner. Seems a bit of a coincidence that two couples were chatting away within yards of each other. But who knows?

I think if the couple allegedly sighted by Brown were Spooner and sweetheart then it would have come out as a result of the inquest. Brown was convinced it was Stride. Surely Spooner would have realised, if it were he that was stood on the corner by the Board School, and if so I can't imagine him not informing the police of this. It remains a mystery as to who the couple were, as sighted by Brown

[Joshua Rogan]

Not according to Spooner Joshua, he stated he and his sweetheart were stood on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, outside the Beehive PH when, "two Jews came running past".

True, but he also said they'd been talking there for 25 minutes, so they would have been there when Brown walked back from the shop with his dinner. Seems a bit of a coincidence that two couples were chatting away within yards of each other. But who knows?

[Joshua Rogan]

Although as stated I believe Deimshutz's arrival to have been the reason the killer fled the scene.

I can go along with that, it's what Louis himself thought might have happened. And Fanny too, although that was after speaking with Louis, obviously.

[Observer]

I
. So you're right, they do corroborate one another in a way, but if the couple were both alive before and after the murder then they weren't Stride and the killer, but most probably Edward Spooner and sweetheart.

Not according to Spooner Joshua, he stated he and his sweetheart were stood on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, outside the Beehive PH when, "two Jews came running past".

[Observer]

Unlikely I agree. However, if he did hear a door open, he may have then expected someone to walk past the gateway at any moment. And by the time he realised they weren't going to, the moment for mutilation had passed. But who knows? It's not my theory, I was just playing along with John G.

Yes I realise you were going along with John G Joshua, no problem. As an alternative to Mortimer scaring off the killer what about the killer being spooked by a noise emanating from the Club? In my opinion a much more likely scenario. Although as stated, I believe Deimshutz's arrival to have been the reason the killer was forced to flee the scene

[Joshua Rogan]

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

I don't think Fanny ever claimed to actually see the couple herself, did she? From her words she could have met them afterwards at the scene of the murder and heard from them that they were there.

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

Whether she saw them herself or not, it seems likely that this couple were the same couple that Brown claimed to see on Fairclough Street talking outside the school (which is on the corner). So you're right, they do corroborate one another in a way, but if the couple were both alive before and after the murder then they weren't Stride and the killer, but most probably Edward Spooner and sweetheart.

[Observer]

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

With regard to the Liz Stride slaying most of the timings when considering witness testimony conflict Robert.

Now, if you are a Michael Richards, this is a sure sign of conspiracy between certain witnesses. I believe all the witnesses told what they imagined was the truth. Reality is a different kettle of fish.

Regarding Mortimer, and Brown, I see where you're coming from now.

Were there witnesses on the street, at the time in question other than the ones we know about ? It's possible. It's possible there was another couple other than Stride and her killer on the street at the appropriate time. I'd say PC Smith saw Stride that night Brown perhaps not. I don't trust Mortimer, she actually stated that she had conversed with the couple who had been standing at the corner of the street. When did this conversation take place ? As far as I know they have never been identified.

With reference to Mortimer, I referred to the statement she made to the Evening News on the 1st of October.

By the way, if all the witnesses on the night of the double event witnessed Jack the Ripper, then it seems he owned more coats than James Brown hiself.

[Joshua Rogan]

He would have heard her door opening mid slice, and then listened for it closing again, before fleeing the scene. Really? Highly unlikely in my opinion. However, , if that were the case, and I very much doubt it, surely, the killer would have been confident that Mortimer was oblivious to his presence. Why did he then fail to mutilate Liz Stride? Bear in mind the risk taken when mutilating Chapman. A risk taking killer no doubt about it.

Unlikely I agree. However, if he did hear a door open, he may have then expected someone to walk past the gateway at any moment. And by the time he realised they weren't going to, the moment for mutilation had passed. But who knows? It's not my theory, I was just playing along with John G.