Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Observer]

I am in agreement with c.d. I believe Schwartz witnessed a mere altercation, a disgruntled drunk taking exception at being propositioned perhaps. The incident over in seconds. There's more than enough time for another individual to enter the scene, near to 1 a.m. that man being Jack The Ripper. I believe it was Deimshutz and his pony and trap who disturbed the killer

[Robert St Devil]

Sorry Robert, you've lost me, I'm failing to see the link between Mortimer and Brown. By the way are you "Living in America"

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

[Observer]

If anyone were moving in or out of the gates, Fanny was confident she would have seen them. But if the killer was already inside and in mid-slice when he heard her door being opened nearby, he could have frozen, or hidden, and waited until heard her door close again before venturing out.

He would have heard her door opening mid slice, and then listened for it closing again, before fleeing the scene. Really? Highly unlikely in my opinion. However, , if that were the case, and I very much doubt it, surely, the killer would have been confident that Mortimer was oblivious to his presence. Why did he then fail to mutilate Liz Stride? Bear in mind the risk taken when mutilating Chapman. A risk taking killer no doubt about it.

[Joshua Rogan]

Make no bones about it, if there was any movement of individuals around the entrance to the yard, Mortimer, upon coming to her front door would have noticed them

If anyone were moving in or out of the gates, Fanny was confident she would have seen them. But if the killer was already inside and in mid-slice when he heard her door being opened nearby, he could have frozen, or hidden, and waited until heard her door close again before venturing out.

[Observer]

The story only seems to make more sense if Schwartz account was closer to 1a than 12:45. Do you think Mortimer is corroborating what James Brown saw? (Sorry, everytime i see that name, i think ,,heh! Step back, kiss myse)lf!,,

Sorry Robert, you've lost me, I'm failing to see the link between Mortimer and Brown. By the way are you "Living in America"

[Robert St Devil]

If that is the case how would the killer know that Mortimer was stood at her front door ?

The story only seems to make more sense if Schwartz account was closer to 1a than 12:45. Do you think Mortimer is corroborating what James Brown saw? (Sorry, everytime i see that name, i think ,,heh! Step back, kiss myse)lf!,,

[Observer]

John,
I think the entrance to the yard was the darkest area, the yard itself being lit by light from the club's windows, so no need to retreat. He may have hidden in the toilets though!

Make no bones about it, if there was any movement of individuals around the entrance to the yard, Mortimer, upon coming to her front door would have noticed them

[Joshua Rogan]

John,
I think the entrance to the yard was the darkest area, the yard itself being lit by light from the club's windows, so no need for the killer to retreat. He may have hidden in the toilets though!

Also, from memory, I don't think Louis ever said he thought it was his wife lying in the passage (although Kozebrodski seemed to get that impression) he said he went looking for his wife because she was of a nervous disposition, or words to that effect. But I think it was dark enough that he couldn't be sure it wasn't his wife.

[Observer]

It's possible that Mortimer came to her doorstep after Stride's throat had been cut.

If that is the case how would the killer know that Mortimer was stood at her front door ?

[Observer]

In your scenario, where exactly are Stride and her killer situated, the moment Mortimer comes to her front door?

[John G]

I've just saw your post above, it's highly unlikely (if Mortimer was the catalyst for the killer to flee the scene) that she would not have noticed Stride and her killer. Go and have a look at how close Mortimer's front door was from the scene. There is a photograph of the IWMC here in Casebook.

It's possible that Mortimer came to her doorstep after Stride's throat had been cut. Her killer could then have retreated deeper into the yard. In fact, I would point out that the yard was cloaked in virtual pitch black darkness, as evidenced by the fact that Lave struggled to find the door to get back into the club.

And when Louis D first looked at the body, from point blank range, he originally thought it was just a bundle of rags. Mind you, on further inspection he concluded that it was his own wife!

[Observer]

I've just saw your post above, it's highly unlikely (if Mortimer was the catalyst for the killer to flee the scene) that she would not have noticed Stride and her killer. Go and have a look at how close Mortimer's front door was from the scene. There is a photograph of the IWMC here in Casebook.

[John G]

So,if the killer of Stride was P.C. Smith's suspect, and this was Jack The Ripper why did he not mutilate the body ?

I would suggest he was disturbed by Fanny Mortimer coming to her doorstep. He waits patiently for her to go inside but, according to her own evidence, she remains for about ten minutes. Of course, during this period he would have risked discovery at any time, i.e. by someone entering the yard or exiting the club. Therefore, when Mortimer eventually does return indoors the perpetrator is sufficiently rattled to flee the scene in search of another victim.

[Observer]

A better interpretation on my view is that Schwartz lied and Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect at about 12:45.

So,if the killer of Stride was P.C. Smith's suspect, and this was Jack The Ripper why did he not mutilate the body ?

[John G]

What reason would Schwartz have for lying?

c.d.

What reason would George Hutchinson, Matthew Packer, Morris Lewis or Violena have for lying, even though their evidence is suspect?

Nonetheless, I would concede that Schwartz may have witnessed a domestic squabble, possibly involving a different woman, at an earlier time than he estimated.

In fact, as discussed at length on another thread, PC Smith was out by about 10 minutes with his time estimate, so it's possible that he saw Stride with the suspect at about 12:45. This scenario would then gel very well with Mortimer's evidence, suggesting the killer may have been disturbed by her appearance on the doorstep, and fled when she went inside.