Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Rosella]

We don't know how many Jews Liz was working for. Her payment could have been as little as one shilling, or two sixpences per two jobs in total. How long that would last with rent to pay, food to buy as well as drink at local pubs, heaven knows.
You keep repeating in various posts that Liz was going to clean the working men's club. There is no evidence at all that she was going to do so, especially at that hour of the night. She was seen with a male a little earlier in the night by PC Smith, so at the very least she was certainly socialising with one male that evening, and then got into an argument with another, if Schwartz is to be believed.

[lynn cates]

What are the odds?

Hello Gareth. Absolutely. I despair at listening to probabilities that X will/will not occur.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Gareth. Absolutely. I despair at listening to probabilities that X will/will not occur.

Cheers.
LC

Along with a plethora of "What if`s" "Maybe`s" "I think" "What could`s" all postulated in a manner that Hans Christian Anderson would have been proud of

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

yes...by a statistical evaluation it seems probable that the Double Event was done by one person....

Of course, I don't subscribe to that view, Mike. Given the demographic data alone, it is practically certain that there was more than one person capable of grave assault and/or murder at any given time in that area. That we should see, once in a while, two entirely unconnected murders within an hour needn't faze us in the least.

however, the variables in this particular warrant additional filters...

Totally agree - but, purely in terms of estimating probability, we should not fall into the heuristic trap of concluding that the Double Event was such a huge coincidence that it was probably the work of a single killer. This simply isn't the case.

[Harry D]

Along with a plethora of "What if`s" "Maybe`s" "I think" "What could`s" all postulated in a manner that Hans Christian Anderson would have been proud of

Like WHAT IF the organs were stolen by organ thieves, and MAYBE Eddowes's bloody "apron" was a menstrual rag WHAT COULD have been picked up by a giant rat?

[Wickerman]

Not forgetting the ravenous dog theory AKA, Jack Russell, the Terrier of Mitre square.

[c.d.]

Oh Lord, please don't let this turn into another statistical probability thread. Statistics ain't gonna solve this mystery. They just ain't.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Liz was in fact there that night to clean. How in the world would Jack know that from simply observing a single woman out by herself late at night? She does not have to be ACTIVELY soliciting to be approached by Jack. And once approached and engaged in conversation what would prevent Jack from saying I know a way you can make a little money that doesn't involve cleaning? We have absolutely no way of knowing what her response would be.

The bottom line is that making your Liz wasn't soliciting argument over and over proves nothing because she only needs to be approached by Jack and all bets are off.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Not forgetting the ravenous dog theory AKA, Jack Russell, the Terrier of Mitre square.

Who can forget the Autumn of Terrier?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

It may be love.

Hello CD.

"Statistics ain't gonna solve this mystery. They just ain't."

I think I love you.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Oh Lord, please don't let this turn into another statistical probability thread. Statistics ain't gonna solve this mystery. They just ain't.

I agree that stats can't solve it, CD, but they can certainly illuminate the case. Simply "believing" that a Double Event is so unlikely that it must have been the work of a single killer neither solves nor illuminates anything.

Hello CD. "Statistics ain't gonna solve this mystery. They just ain't."

I think I love you.

Give me empiricism over gut feeling any day of the week, or any hour of a Victorian East End night for that matter

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think that the difference in distance and the time it would take to walk is misleading ... because unless Jack knew that he would meet someone in Mitre Square he would have just been meandering around, so not taking a direct route.

So, it could have taken him fifteen minutes, three hours, or even more.

So I dont believe that the vicinity argument is a viable one.

I would suggest that the differences in the actuall state of the corpse in relation to the others is the major element.

For that reason, and for others, I do not believe that Stride was murdered by JTR.

Best wishes.

[Sam Flynn]

I think that the difference in distance and the time it would take to walk is misleading ... because unless Jack knew that he would meet someone in Mitre Square he would have just been meandering around, so not taking a direct route.

You make a good point. In addition, once he'd got to the vicinity of Mitre Square, he'd have used up yet more time in seeking and securing* a suitable victim, unless Eddowes just happened to cross his path at precisely the right moment.

* I don't get the impression from Lawende and co's testimony that Eddowes and "Jack" had only just bumped into each other. The "pursuit" and "seduction" must have taken up a few minutes in itself.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Liz was in fact there that night to clean. How in the world would Jack know that from simply observing a single woman out by herself late at night? She does not have to be ACTIVELY soliciting to be approached by Jack. And once approached and engaged in conversation what would prevent Jack from saying I know a way you can make a little money that doesn't involve cleaning? We have absolutely no way of knowing what her response would be.

The bottom line is that making your Liz wasn't soliciting argument over and over proves nothing because she only needs to be approached by Jack and all bets are off.

c.d.

The thing here is cd that unless this Jack fellow was already on the club property when Liz steps into the passageway,.... (by virtue of everyone elses account except for Israels this likely happened just after PC Smith left because no-one else saw any activity on the street at all between 12:35 and 12:55/12:56...when Fanny sees Goldstein)...he would have had to have used the street unseen and then entered a dark passageway with an ajar kitchen door some 19 feet down the lane....looking for a victim?

It seems to me, and others, that there are a few things we can see fairly clearly about Pollys murder and Annies murder ...that they were chosen because it was dark early morning, that they were alone, and they were approachable by strangers because they were soliciting...again, these are the only 2 Canonicals that we have that kind of evidence for. We can see that the person who killed both...(because these 2 consecutive murders are by far the most similar in forensic terms, we can safely assume 1 killer), had some anatomical knowledge, some skills using a knife, and that he was seen by no-one as he picked up his prey.

Using just those few similarities it seems odd that from that point in time his skills sets are redefined and downplayed, as are his knife skills...his pattern and method and compulsions suddenly change.....and he becomes the uncontrollable stalking madman, with barely the skills of a butcher, and without any real goal besides simply killing women. To assume that Liz Strides killer left unsated,.... as is the basis for almost all the arguments for his then running off to Mitre to fully butcher someone...is to deny all the signs that he left her untouched of his own free will after a single cut.

The man that killed both Polly and Annie killed so he could facilitate what he desired most on those nights...to control, kill, and then mutilate a strange woman who was vulnerable and on her own. Her could kill effectively, and surely..cutting deep and twice, do it almost silently, cut them open to bleed out...and as they died, and with some skill,..he would excise internal organs located in the abdomen.

I wonder to this day why anyone would assume that Liz Strides murder was by that same man.

Cheers cd

[Sleuth1888]

I'm a bit back on forth on this issue. At one time I thought that Stride was not killed by Jack the Ripper, but now my views have changed to the point where at this moment in time I am very much persuaded that Stride was a Ripper victim.

The coincidence of two murders at the height of the Ripper scare being done by two different people, is too improbable in my mind, although it could be possible.