The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

Hi David,

I think Morris might be coming back that night for Liz. I think she likes Jewish men.

Yes, you could shut the gates, get some buckets of water and flush the blood, cover the body with a tarp and send Diemshutz out to drop it somewhere...but why risk being caught transporting a woman you didnt kill? How much risk would they take to preserve their operations...Lying seems a small price to pay, but not going so far as to hide a killer or move his victims for him.

As Mike suggests a spokesman, maybe Diemshutz...he is steward, or Eagle...someone they will listen to puts together a "seenothingheardnothing" story...most go back inside, 2 go out for cops......seems safe enough to me......but which one is this person they all will abide by?

Heres my thinking......Wess. He translates for 1 Club witness, perhaps is a translator for Schwartzs story...he runs the anarchist press Arbeter Fraint onsite...(the man who could lose the most financially as a result of trouble)....he claims he was already gone....and this to me is outrageous.....he is asked to speak first at the Inquest.

Not the man that was last seen with her, or who saw her, not the medical authority, not Diemshutz who finds her, not Kidney the closest known male, not PC Smith the last copper there....but William Wess, the editor who left before anything happened. Or did he?

Best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

Wess, Eagle, and Diemschutz possibly. Who knows? Not I.

Mike

[DVV]

I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking.
Mike

The "energetic Morris Eagle" (Sugden?), eh ?

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

Has anyone yet addressed the observation with which I opened this thread?

Gareth,

I think I addressed this in a long-winded way. I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking. It would have been quite easy just to tell your fellows to play dumb, or play Yiddish, or something. I think Diemschutz knew only his part, and Wess only his part, and if a member was involved, it may not gave been understood that evening. The main thing would have been not letting anything about the club slip that would harm the clubs usual activities.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

The thing about moving her David is the blood. Its a river in their yard in the gutter, and still oozing from her.
Best regards all.

Hi Mike,
close the gates, and you can't be caught.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

edit: far more risky to bring the police to the club, no ?

Hi all,

Mike I think your first few paragraphs are thoughts aligned with mine, but Ive not yet concluded they didnt see it or know the man that did it yet. I doubt the yard was empty. If they let the man into the club long enough to stir some people by the gates, he is then let out the Berner door and walks away without attention. Might been seen shortly wiping his hands somewhere.

Sam, by Blackwell....and lets face it, he was within his skill level to determine an approximate cut time based on at the most, a half hour cut,...if there is no BSM/Liz altercation outside the gates, Liz may have been in the yard shortly after Browns sighting...and cut as early as 12:46am. Thats loads of time to do as Mike suggests....."This is how we'll handle this, ....no-one was out here after Eagle comes back in, and he'll say the yard was empty, right Morris? No-one else was out here, and no-one saw nuffing, right? This aint our doing, but it can be our undoing, so stick together and we'll make out fine." Diemshutz pulls in, the horse shies from the people just inside the gate to the right...around a body. They fill him in....5 minutes later they have Spooner in the yard.

Like my namesake would recognize, when there is motive and opportunity for The Club to remain the "men that will not be blamed for nothing"....I can easily see it being a decision that they would make.

The thing about moving her David is the blood. Its a river in their yard in the gutter, and still oozing from her. Best not to try and move her, imagine if they were caught doing that....vs just telling a white lie to avoid ruin. See no evil, Hear no evil, Do no evil.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

Not yet...but no wonder, from those who, like me, don't believe in any cover-up there.
It's a valid argument, though some may reply that the Clubmen's story would be quickly cooked up: "We know nothing, have seen nothing, heard nothing. Okay?"
To which I'd reply: they could easily put the corpse on Diemshutz formula 1 and leave it somewhere.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

If there were a Jewish/Socialist hush-up at Berner Street, it strikes me that all those witnesses had very little time in which to cook up their cover story.

Has anyone yet addressed the observation with which I opened this thread?

[The Good Michael]

The safety of the Berner Street club and its ability to recruit members and dispense socialist and radical information would have been paramount, and especially just after a woman is murdered on its property when many members were present. It wouldn't take but a moment for Diemschutz to advise Wess of the situation and for Wess, or another to gather the club members and say, "I'll handle this situation. We have done nothing wrong, but the more of you that talk to the police, the more suspicion may be cast on the club. Diemschutz and I will do the talking. The rest of you, speak Yiddish or Russian when confronted. Remember, the ability to continue our good work here is of utmost importance."

In most organizations, this is kind of how things work. In a radical organization, there would be tight controls over who said what to the police. There were all sorts of secrets that could be leaked out if an open witness was allowed to blather away.

I suggest that no one knew what happened to Stride (at that moment), but that it was all about information control in order to protect the club and its members, and the murder wasn't even a secondary consideration. Schwartz could have easily been a plant along with an "expert" translator, though that is quite a bit of speculation.

Did a member kill Stride? Was a member Jack the Ripper? Possibly, but that wasn't as important as allowing the socialist movement to continue. I think they would have taken care of an issue like this themselves so as not to call more attention to their goings-on.

Cheers,

Mike

Sara,

Sorry, but they weren't "idealists." They were extreme ideologues at "war" with capitalism and what they considered its oppresive establishment, represented by, among many things, the police. I don't believe in a socialist conspiracy based at the Club, but that the members would lie to protect the movement, even if it meant impeding the investigation into an innocent woman's murder, would not surprise me.

Don.

Hi all,

Sara thanks for a really thoughtful post, and Don, its nice to say that I agree with your overview above. Its what has allowed me to speculate a bit further, that at the least, there are logical motives for a cover-up if it occurred.....both to protect the "cause", and protect the more capitalist aspects of the location,...its paying members and the radical press on site.

I just want to be sure Im clear that I am not suggesting a Club member killed Liz and all covered it up neccesarily..Im only really suggesting that someone from that property that night was perhaps her killer, and to avoid undue scrutiny and the ruination of the club and the paper, all should say the yard was empty and they heard nothing. They had time to do so if Liz was cut closer to the earliest estimate by Blackwell.

Schwartz's story suggests the man that probably killed her also accosted her on the street, BSM...the 2 of them are alone in front of the gates when the witnesses leave....and BSM could not have come from the club based on Schwartz, and Eagle.

Im sure they would have loved some evidence like that at the Inquest...funny with the written support of the story as David points out that they didnt get him on the stand. Or even mentioned.

Best regards Don, Sara, David, all.

[Supe]

Sara,

Sorry, but they weren't "idealists." They were extreme ideologues at "war" with capitalism and what they considered its oppresive establishment, represented by, among many things, the police. I don't believe in a socialist conspiracy based at the Club, but that the members would lie to protect the movement, even if it meant impeding the investigation into an innocent woman's murder, would not surprise me.

Don.

[DVV]

- I would note though, as a general point, that these anarchists/socialists are 'idealists' and it would be very unlikely such people would automatically agree to lie about it if Stride had just been murdered by one of their own.

Hello Sara,
I agree that "it would be very unlikely" that ALL of them would have agree to lie about a murder, but this has nothing to do with their political opinion.
The "idealist" Diemshutz used to run his own little business, and certainly told lies about the grapes.

Amitiés,
David

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Whether what Schwartz said was true or not, the likeliest scenario of Liz's murder is that her killer was somehow affiliated with that club, rather than being the Ripper. Though it seems a bit conspiratorial and, well, I don't want to say silly, but...

[Sara]

So,..some snippets...

- Based on Blackwells estimates, Liz may have been killed as early as 12:46am, and likely not later than 12:56am. If she is killed in front of witnesses in the yard, they have perhaps 14 minutes to do some damage control before Diemshutz even arrives.

- A man who was off the property by his own statements when the murder occurred, the editor of a radical press operation in the yard, speaks before any witness at the Inquest.
- The International Club was categorized by officials as an Anarchists Club.
1) - 2 key statements are given in foreign language, Wess we know translates one of them, Goldstein's.
- None of the members mentioned are over 30, which would put them in the right age group for anarchy and activism.

- Diemshutz and Eagle supposedly yell "another woman has been murdered" when seeking Police. Yet nothing in Liz Strides single injury would lead to an automatic conclusion this death belonged to the man that killed Annie Chapman, or Polly.

- Diemshutz says that his pony shied left when it came upon Liz on the ground, she was effectively behind the gate though.

They had the opportunity to create the environment that excluded a potential Club attendee, they had the need to protect the Club from any threat to its operations, and all they had to do really is all say nothing except no one was in the yard. They may have had 10 minutes or more to arrange that with other men on-site.

Liz was killed....thats all most of them knew anyway,.. and nothing about their story, whether an outsider is seen accosting her, or even if it was a club attendee, was going to raise her from the dead.

So I believe they did what they felt they must do to ensure the club and its members are not thought to be the potential murderer here.

This is an interesting set of observations indeed! I don't feel qualified to add anything to the points made about individual witnesses, for or against.

- I would note though, as a general point, that these anarchists/socialists are 'idealists' and it would be very unlikely such people would automatically agree to lie about it if Stride had just been murdered by one of their own.

- It would be natural for the editor involved in the radical press to be 'spokesman' since he would be educated, be able to speak English (or was English?), and would probably be accustomed to public speaking. From what we know of such people, he was no doubt something of a 'leader' among the group of 'comrades'

- I don't think the 'another woman' was referring to any murderer in particular - someome was just exclaiming on the remarkable fact that yet another woman had been killed in the same area, surely?

- Animals inc horses have a very acute sense of smell, and horses in general dislike the smell of blood; they will also shy at anything unexpected, esp in an environment which is familiar to them ('home turf'). In addition they have vision which enables them to see beside and to quite a degree behind themselves - so it's very likely the horse was shying at the body

[DVV]

You dont need to indulge me David,..this either makes sense to you or it doesnt...but more and more it does seem to answer some of my questions.

That was sincere, Mike,
I don't understand anything in the Stride's murder.
I admit I think she's canonical, but I really don't know how things went on.
That's why alternative scenarii are so welcome.

Amitiés mon cher,
David