The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[The Good Michael]

Hey Mike,

You think Hutchinson could have been named Hutchinberg or something similar? He's been accused of so much, I suspect he could have been involved here too.

Cheers,

Mike

I think if a murder just like this was discovered in the yard of a Biker Clubhouse it would be no surprise to discover that any witnesses that were there at the time saw nothing and heard nothing. Barring an outside witness to dispute that claim.

No one in this Stride case could be disputed based solely on their story in that same way.

I see anarchists and modern bikers share at least anti-social and anti-authority attitudes, and in the same way early Union formation was the result of violence and intimidation, my bet is that men were employed to be strong arms at rallies and meetings.

I think such a man might be the cuplrit here....and if BSM existed, he would be a suitable candidate based on the broadshoulders and the way he may have manhandled a woman.

Best regards.

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

If I may jump in here... So long as Diemschutz was the first to know of what happened, and other members were oblivious, being in their cups, and dancing and whatnot, it may have been standard procedure at the club to bring any suspect behavior or problem to the attention of Wess or Eagle first and allow them to make decisions. It's wuite probable, and the club members' stories bear this out, that the majority knew nothing, so saying nothing was quite easy. I don't have any real answers, but what I have is the idea that some sort damage control would have been important to the existence and continued security of such an organization as the Berner Street Club, especially because they were businessmen and socialists, and anarchists. Without some sort of system, the club couldn't have lasted too long, in my opinion. Remember, I'm not pointing to any sort of a-member-was-the-ripper idea here (though it's possible), but rather, to an immediate attempt to stabilize a bad situation.

Cheers,

Mike

But they didn't say nothing, as such, Mike. The police and press took down the stories of several club members - this doesn't strike me as being in the least bit non-cooperative, taciturn, or "working to rule".

Of the Club members who had anything to say that we are aware of.....Diemshutz, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave and Mrs Diemshutz are the only ones who would potentially need to tailor the facts to enable the "whitewash", the remaining men on site and the cottagers need only say they saw or heard nothing...which I believe is the essence of their statements.

Goldstein doesnt come into the station until Tuesday, so plenty of time for him to be told to say he heard and saw nothing, which is what he says...and Schwartz is not a proven member of the club, but his story is actually in their benefit, so if he was coerced or not, he cant hurt them with his remarks. And since he wasnt even deemed a proper witness and introduced at the Inquest with his story...his participation in a cover-up might even have been considered at that time by the authorities.

We are not talking about them making up a murder story....just tailoring their witness accounts to suggest that no member/attendee could have done this. Empty yard, no sound, no witnesses.

Best regards Sam

[Sam Flynn]

As Mike suggested Sam,...how hard is it to say nothing?

But they didn't say nothing, as such, Mike. The police and press took down the stories of several club members - this doesn't strike me as being in the least bit non-cooperative, taciturn, or "working to rule".

As Mike suggested Sam,...how hard is it to say nothing? Its not like the story was complicated at all....if there was any story like the one that I'm suggesting...no-one in the yard, no-one saw anything....for most of them that was probably the truth anyway in my scenario....our scenario for those who entertain it like Mike.

And language may well have helped facilitate that.

We have all embraced a story for years that leaves Liz with BSM at 12:46am, and picks her up again, now dying, at 1:00am. That seems to have been enough for most everyone cause thats all that is on paper...in Schwartz's case, he gets witness credentials without giving his very important and apparently believed story to the Inquest jury.

That time gap IS the whole story....weve been dealing with everything but her actual murder.

Its not like there is no answer....its just that the one we have been settling for definitely is not one. We are missing the most important part.

Best regards gents and Happy Easter.

[The Good Michael]

But weren't the several witnesses interviewed by police at the time, Mike? The inevitable inconsistencies ought to have been apparent right away.

Gareth,

True, but if only a few were allowed to talk, or to pretend they could speak English, it would alleviate some of those issues. It wouldn't take but a minute for (for example) Wess to understand the situation and to decide who the speakers would be. Again, it may have been just about telling exactly what they knew and not about what they thought the possibilities were. It was just information control with regards to club activity, and I suggest they had done this sort of thing before, though not with a recent corpse involved.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

I think I addressed this in a long-winded way. I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking.

But weren't the several witnesses interviewed by police at the time, Mike? The inevitable inconsistencies ought to have been apparent right away.

[Malcolm X]

your theory is interesting, but you're moving too far into the realms of speculation...........but i guess that we're all guilty of this.

i dont think it's a cover up at all, definitely not envolving Diemschutz...it's far too rediculous, because i would've thought that the sensible thing to have done was :- to close the gates, put Stride's body onto the cart, cover her over, take the cart out again and dump her somewhere else, shift the blame elsewhere.......
return to dutfields and wash the blood away.... chance of being stopped? this didn't bother the Torso murderer did it

but hay who knows, it's up to you lot to argue it out!

Hi Malcolm,

I would disagree that moving Liz would be a smart option for them. Its possible based on my conjecture that the members themselves had nothing to do with the murder at at all....their only concern would be that the man was a club attendee and therefore that makes them responsible for "hosting" a killer, and that a woman is dead in their yard.

Moving around Torsos that you made yourself is another thing altogether.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

I havent mentioned a killer yet.

Wess may have been the ringmaster, in my opinion.

One thing about Morris....he says when he heard of the woman cut and bleeding by the gates he "tumbled pell mell down the stairs" to go see...yet he then says he was deathly afraid of the sight of blood.....seems rushing to look at something that sickens you might have more to do with who is bleeding, than just a dead woman bleeding.

What if Broadshouldered Man is a club thug. He is in the yard after the meeting....Liz shows up near the time she is to meet her "friend"...Morris sees her, tells her hell be right back, and she decides to wait just inside the gates for him. BSM starts being "overly friendly", and not warmly received as Liz has her mind on her date. Schwartz walks out the side door. A scuffle is taking place, Liz falls, BSM snaps a warning to Schwartz over his shoulder, then he and a man smoking a pipe in the yard leave via the gates. Liz is dying.

Some member runs inside to tell Kozebrodski or someone, and he and Eagle and some guys come running down to see what happened. Its now around 12:50-12:55. A few men are talking about what to do about this, Goldstein walks by and is warned to keep moving by a man in the yard. They take BSM into the kitchen, give him a napkin to wipe his hands, then a few minutes later when the hubub starts by the gates, they let him out the Berner door.

They lie about the yard being empty, and later, about where the incident occurred. For 2 reasons.....1, to protect their own interests and financial investments, and 2, because they fear reprisal from BSM...a man they hire for crowd control because he is scary.

Thats sort of how I envision this may work. But who is the ringleader? Did Wess actually leave? Or was it one of the other senior men onsite? If not Wess, then what the hell is he doing speaking first at Liz Strides murder Inquest?

Best regards

i dont think it's a cover up at all, definitely not envolving Diemschutz...it's far too rediculous, because i would've thought that the sensible thing to have done was :- to close the gates, put Stride's body onto the cart, cover her over, take the cart out again and dump her somewhere else, shift the blame elsewhere.......
return to dutfields and wash the blood away.... chance of being stopped? this didn't bother the Torso murderer did it

but hay who knows, it's up to you lot to argue it out!

[DVV]

Hey, Mike,
Not bad at all...
For sure, it makes a good reading!
Thanks.

Amitiés,
David

All this is very interesting, Mike(s),
but where is the motive ?
Kidney can make this murder a domestic affair.
Jack was a serial killer.
But Wess ?
I add that with such a position in the organization, he would have been very stupid to kill there.
And even if there had been a successful cover-up, he would have quickly faced a general grudge.

Amitiés,
David

I havent mentioned a killer yet.

Wess may have been the ringmaster, in my opinion.

One thing about Morris....he says when he heard of the woman cut and bleeding by the gates he "tumbled pell mell down the stairs" to go see...yet he then says he was deathly afraid of the sight of blood.....seems rushing to look at something that sickens you might have more to do with who is bleeding, than just a dead woman bleeding.

What if Broadshouldered Man is a club thug. He is in the yard after the meeting....Liz shows up near the time she is to meet her "friend"...Morris sees her, tells her hell be right back, and she decides to wait just inside the gates for him. BSM starts being "overly friendly", and not warmly received as Liz has her mind on her date. Schwartz walks out the side door. A scuffle is taking place, Liz falls, BSM snaps a warning to Schwartz over his shoulder, then he and a man smoking a pipe in the yard leave via the gates. Liz is dying.

Some member runs inside to tell Kozebrodski or someone, and he and Eagle and some guys come running down to see what happened. Its now around 12:50-12:55. A few men are talking about what to do about this, Goldstein walks by and is warned to keep moving by a man in the yard. They take BSM into the kitchen, give him a napkin to wipe his hands, then a few minutes later when the hubub starts by the gates, they let him out the Berner door.

They lie about the yard being empty, and later, about where the incident occurred. For 2 reasons.....1, to protect their own interests and financial investments, and 2, because they fear reprisal from BSM...a man they hire for crowd control because he is scary.

Thats sort of how I envision this may work. But who is the ringleader? Did Wess actually leave? Or was it one of the other senior men onsite? If not Wess, then what the hell is he doing speaking first at Liz Strides murder Inquest?

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

..he is asked to speak first at the Inquest.

It's possible Wess asked to be questioned first as well, perhaps to set the tone for his cronies. Still Mike, I'm not suggesting there was a murder cover-up. Sufficient reason for a cover-up would be that a woman was killed on Club property. They had to nip this one in the bud or subject the club to all sorts of scrutiny. As I said, I think they would have taken care of any problem involving a member and murder on their own, and that it would have been secondary to the protection of the club. I wonder if Druitt was a member?

Mike

[DVV]

All this is very interesting, Mike(s),
but where is the motive ?
Kidney can make this murder a domestic affair.
Jack was a serial killer.
But Wess ?
I add that with such a position in the organization, he would have been very stupid to kill there.
And even if there had been a successful cover-up, he would have quickly faced a general grudge.

Amitiés,
David