The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Nothing to see]

Says who?

Out of all the quick and quiet ways of killing a person, ones that could've spared Jack more time to work on the body, he chooses to use strangluation and throat slashing as his preferred methods.

He could've just broke their necks, bludgeoned them, whatever. But he chose to use not one but two ways that, if things had gone wrong, could've facilitated his victims' escape and perhaps even his capture. With strangulation, one of the women could've fought him off, and with the throat cutting Jack had to have whipped his blade out of somewhere on his person, which also could've potentially bungled things.

Obviously the actual murder would be the thing he would have to have gotten 'out of the way' first if he wanted to rip their stomachs open. But that doesn't prove that he didn't get a degree of satisfaction out of actually killing his victims.

I'm not saying I buy into any of that personally, but I do think the actual killing gets overlooked a lot.

How do you know that Jack knew how to kill like that? He had his way, with a backup. You're quite right. Jack strangled, then slashed. It worked for him. No one got up and ran after Jack had killed them. Stride was no exception.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

And it would seem that most of these arguments forget the simple principle here.....Jack didnt get off on killing,

Says who?

Out of all the quick and quiet ways of killing a person, ones that could've spared Jack more time to work on the body, he chooses to use strangluation and throat slashing as his preferred methods.

He could've just broke their necks, bludgeoned them, whatever. But he chose to use not one but two ways that, if things had gone wrong, could've facilitated his victims' escape and perhaps even his capture. With strangulation, one of the women could've fought him off, and with the throat cutting Jack had to have whipped his blade out of somewhere on his person, which also could've potentially bungled things.

Obviously the actual murder would be the thing he would have to have gotten 'out of the way' first if he wanted to rip their stomachs open. But that doesn't prove that he didn't get a degree of satisfaction out of actually killing his victims.

I'm not saying I buy into any of that personally, but I do think the actual killing gets overlooked a lot.

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand and Schwartz

Returning to my earlier posts and more solid ground regarding Le Grand and his procuring of Matthew Packer's services in thwarting the investigation.

Regardless of Le Grand's motive in fashioning a fictional suspect, it forces the question 'Did he do this with more than one witness?' The only possibility that made sense was Schwartz, so I pursued this idea for a while. In doing so, I found it intriguing that Packer's ever-evolving timeline never stretched up so far as 12:30am, which would make sense if Schwartz were also on Le Grand's payroll. I eventually abandoned the notion that Schwartz was working with Le Grand based on the fact that Pipeman and Le Grand were practically twins and it would not make a lick of sense to send a man to the police with your description.

What DOES make sense is to pay Packer to say it was someone else if you happened to BE the man Schwartz saw.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mr.Hyde]

Quite sure he was partially deaf and did not hear the cart coming.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

I think you are making more of a mess of the situation than is really necessary. Granted, you're not as far off the rocker as others, but it needn't be so complicated.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about supposed conspiracies regarding the Berner Street murder, so I'll try to get back on topic with a post soon.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

``No you arent assuming that at all...you are assuming the man who gained a nickname by Ripping women after killing them might only just kill even when he can hear someone coming, and that he might make a single cut, cut the victim while falling this time, and that it frustrates him so much he does to Kate everything he has already done to 2 consecutive victims before Liz, and just added facial cuts to show his "frustration".``


yes this is true, the ripper wouldn't have bothered if he heard a cart comming along, so did the ripper escape the yard just in time, or was he still in there?.......

my guess is the ripper wouldn't have retreated back into the yard if he heard it early enough, but instead; ran out as fast as he could...........this wasn't seen, well maybe Mrs Mortimer wasn't watching all the time....

but did the Ripper hear the cart from around the corner in dutfields or did he hear it after it had turned the corner into Berner st and it was too late to leg it!!!!!!!!!

aaaaahhhh, now lets think about this, he is around the corner in the yard and the cart is comming along around yet another corner, before entering Berner st, i think fairclough st....whatever, it's travelling slowly.

morris eagle could hear, from the first floor window, strains of a friend singing in russian (about 12.40) , he went upstairs and joined in the singing..we now could have 2 men singing upstais....so there could be quite a lot of noise comming from the open window upstairs....you could probably hear other drunken people too..almost definitely...boozed up men are pretty damn loud!

it is quite possible that the ripper didn't hear the cart until it was too late to leg it........... yes indeed

but uuum, ``we have a slight problem Houston``......... Morris Eagle didn't see Stride before entering the club, so where the hell was she ... flipping heck!

none of this makes sense......Goldstein saw nothing too, at 12.55....where was Stride!!.........Stride went missing from 12.45 or 12.40 to 1am....mrs Mortimer saw nothing !! Morris Eagle, if Stride was already dead, would've either stumbled over her or maybe have seen her too, someone is either very blind, lieing, or the ripper came along after 12.55 and was hiding in the back of the yard.... but again i say, where was stride, because if so, Goldstein should've seen her at 12.55

finally, the killer could be a club member and Perry could be right, a club member makes the most sense, because the biggest problem we have is Stride vanishing around 12.40 or 12.45............ if someone sais to me the Ripper killed her at 12.56 then i'll have to say, where the hell was she BEFORE this, because we have 3 people that should've seen her!

.............. now that's about it, i did warn members here to steer well clear of this murder, it's just a total and utter mess!

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, then she must have been dead, because everyone reacted as though they were looking at a dead person. I would like to know the full facts too, Simon. But that isn't always possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Simon,

For what it is worth, Diemschutz believed that the killer was still in the yard when he entered due to the continuingly odd behavior of his pony.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Believe it or not, you're still alive during the process of dying.

Whether Stride was dead or in the process of dying is of huge importance when it comes to our understanding of what happened in Berner Street.

People react very differently to the dying than they do to the dead.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

Failing that, I suggest we all go along with Michael's "The Ripper had a headache that night."

Or it could simply be that the increased police patrols made him a little bit more paranoid than before.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

None of this is new to me or new to these boards. We've discussed the possibly that Liz wasn't completely dead at the time She was found. It doesn't change much. Her heart was still pumping blood. That doesn't make her alive, it makes her dying.

What exactly does this change if it is in fact the case?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

So Liz Stride was brain dead but technically alive?

Jeez, I've caught eels that have wriggled less than you.

Every living person on the planet has grown up believing Stride was dead when Louis Diemschitz entered Dutfields Yard at 1.00 am.

They also grew up believing that her murderer was Jack the Ripper, who was interrupted by said Louis Diemschitz [hence no bodily mutilations to Stride] and went off to slake his lustmord by killing Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square.

Our thread will never get to the truth of what really happened in Berner Street, but it would be a giant step forward for Ripperology if we could at least agree that there is more than sufficient evidence to suggest that the hoary old double-event scenario is a myth.

Failing that, I suggest we all go along with Michael's "The Ripper had a headache that night."

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

You're such a bully, C.D.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I love it when you're butch, Tom.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

You're such a bully, C.D.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

I know you can read, but do you? Name one piece of evidence that supports your claim that Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride, or that he was interrupted, that he would kill only, cut once, or kill twice a night?

Regards

Jeez Michael. Take a chill pill. I didn't direct any discourtesy to you so don't do it to me.

Can you PROVE to me that the BS man killed Liz?

c.d.