The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,according to Rumbelow it was the " Ludwig Zagowski" that people pronounced Schloski,according to Levishon this was the name he was using when he met up with him in the East End.

I think Rumbelow was wrong, Nats. I can well imagine "Kłosowsky" being mistakenly pronounced as "Shloski" - as it has a consonant followed by an "L" at the start and a mass of "ss" sounds in the middle. "Zagowski" has neither of those attributes.

Lipski sounds very similar to Schloski-IMHO!

Only in the sense that "lipping" could be mistaken for "shlossing".

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Natalie. I see that as a very, very loose connection, especially considering what a weak suspect Chapman makes. But even if I found him relevant, I'm not sure I'd be swayed, since - as Sam pointed out - Lipski sounds so much different from 'Schoski', particularly to the ears of a Jewish immigrant like Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Tom,
From the later part of 1888, Chapman [real name Severin Klosowski] was down as having his address at 126 Cable Street - only a few minutes South of Berner Street , and we know that he was using the name Zagowski-pronounced "Schloski" only a year later [1890] in George Yard.
OK-it may be a long shot, but even the police were getting the pronunciation of foreign names muddled because of their unfamiliarity with their syllable patterns,so the real pronunciation of the word Schwartz heard could have got lost in translation.

Sam,according to Rumbelow it was the " Ludwig Zagowski" that people pronounced Schloski,according to Levishon this was the name he was using when he met up with him in the East End. Lipski sounds very similar to Schloski-IMHO!

[Sam Flynn]

It's quite a leap from "Lipski" to "Schloski", Nats. Besides, the "Schloski" pronunciation dates from Kłosowski's time at Tottenham, many years later, when he was definitely working amongst non-Jews. In his earlier work amongst the Jews of East London, he apparently seems to have gone by the name of "Ludwig Zagowski" (according to Wolff Levisohn), which again bears little resemblance to "Lipski", whichever way one looks at it - or listens to it, for that matter.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Natalie. I'm not sure what Chapman has to do with this, or why someone would be yelling out his name, but Abberline questioned Schwartz thoroughly on what he heard and what relationship he thought the two men (they of the pipe and shoulders) may have had. I don't think there was a problem with the translation, but we'll have to take Schwartz's word that he correctly heard what was said.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Re the witness Schwartz"s comments about what he said he saw that night,the the name Klosowski [aka Chapman] was pronounced by the English as "Schloski" and it may have sounded a bit like the word, "Lipski" to Schwartz ,who hadnt yet attuned to the English sound system as he had to depend on an interpreter to describe the incident he saw and heard.

[Tom_Wescott]

To accuse the doctors of lying, you should keep in mind that there were MANY witnesses to her body in the yard, and none came up after to scream 'cover up!' And believe me, the press would have loved that. If the doctors were lying, so were the police, Edward Spooner, and later Diemschutz and the other clubmen who gave evidence. I'm sorry, but there were no grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Blackwell and Phillips testimony on being recalled to the inquest after Packer's damning story appeared in the Evening News effectively got the police off the hook.

I'll take a punt here and suggest the good doctors were lying.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

I think you tend to confuse yourself, AP. No, I do not think a Jew killed Stride, although I suppose it's just as possible as a gentile killer. I was simply pointing out that it's very possible some of the clubmen had interraction with Stride prior to her murder, and this would have made them very nervous.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, you generally confuse the hell outta me, but here you do it special.
So, like many other potentates in this field you reckon a Jew did it?
If so, why would Le Grand serve and protect a Jew, or a Jewish organisation? Especially when his wages were being paid by a non-Jewish organisation?
There is a connection between the IWEC and Le Bland, as I pointed out to you a very long time ago, but you missed it then and I guess you'll miss it now, because as you said in your post, why should we work for the benefit of others.
I do.
Be sweet.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Simon,

Great posts, and I like the photos. You're right about her great manicure! I'm not sure how you can believe Matthew Packer, since his story is a transparent lie. But I digress...

While Diemschutz and Kozebrodski (or one or the other) no doubt believed they saw grapes in Stride's hand, which is how it seeped into the press, they were mistaken. All those who were physically close to the body, such as the doctors and policemen and Edward Spooner, did not see any grapes. Diemschutz apparently realized his error by the time of the inquest because he made no remark about them. Stride had no grape juice stains on her hand, there were no grapes near her body, and no skins or seeds in her stomach. There simply weren't any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Two excellent posts.

I happen to believe Matthew Packer, so here's the flip side of the coin.

Let's look at the logic of Stride being the woman accompanying the man Matthew Packer served with half-a-pound of grapes.

Here in the elegant right hand of our model, Susan, is half-a-pound of black grapes [bought from the Matthew Packer fruit concession at Albertsons supermarket]. Note how 29 grapes fill the hand and are somewhat difficult to conceal.



The grapes were purchased at 11.45 pm. Stride was found dead at 1.00 am.

IRISH TIMES, 1st OCTOBER 1888

"A reporter who has seen the corpse states that . . . In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes, and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats."

The description of the body was from an agency. The full version appeared word-for-word in a number of newspapers.

The Irish Times continued—

"A young Russian Pole, named M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, and who spoke the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-

"The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

"Diemschitz said, she had a flower in the bosom of her dress, and in one hand she had some grapes and in the other some sweets."

EVENING NEWS, 1st OCTOBER 1888

"Diemschitz being then asked to describe the body as well as he could, said: Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes."

One report suggests that in the 75 minutes between the purchase of the grapes and Stride being found dead she had not eaten the whole half-pound of grapes. Another report suggests that she had. If she had eaten the whole half-pound why would she have been holding a bare grapestalk?

The beautifully-manicured Susan is here holding the last 8 of the grapes.



And here she's holding just the grapestalk.



Stride's body was discovered at 1.00 am.

PC Lamb arrived a few minutes later. [Stride's left arm was under her body. Right arm across the breast].

PC Lamb did not see grapes or cachous.

Edward Johnston [Blackwell's assistant] arrived between 1.10 and 1.16 am. [Stride's left hand was lying away from the body, possibly on the ground, with left arm bent. Right arm also bent].

Johnston did not see grapes; nor did he "notice the paper in the left hand."

Doctor Blackwell arrived at 1.16 am. [Stride's partially-closed left hand containing cachous was lying on the ground. The right hand, "quite open" was across the chest].

Doctor Blackwell did not see grapes.

Diemschitz and Kozebrodski saw grapes as Blackwell examined Stride's body.

The press agency reporter saw grapes tightly grasped in Stride's right hand.

Doctor Blackwell [who arrived at 1.16 am] inquest testimony—

"I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet had lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for its not having been seen by several of those around . . ."

. . . except for Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and the press agency reporter, who saw that "in her left [hand] she held a number of sweetmeats."

Doctor Phillips [who arrived between 1.36 and 1.40 am] inquest testimony—

"The left arm was extended, and there was a packet of cachous in the left hand . . . I took them from her and handed them to Dr. Blackwell."

It's hard to know which doctor removed the cachous. But whoever it was, the press agency reporter must have seen the grapes and cachous in Stride's hands prior to this incident.

On Day 4 of the inquest Doctors Blackwell and Phillips were recalled.
Doctor Phillips inquest testimony—

"The Coroner also desired me to examine the two handkerchiefs which were found on the deceased. I did not discover any blood on them, and I believe that the stains on the larger handkerchief are those of fruit. Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death."

[Coroner] "Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard?"

[Doctor Blackwell] "No."

[Coroner] "Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there?"

[Doctor Blackwell] "I did not."

Which is all very strange, because up until this moment on Friday 5th October, the subject of grapes had not been previously mentioned at the inquest.

But it just so happens that, after the close of the inquest on Wednesday 3rd October, Matthew Packer's grape-selling story appeared in The Evening News and the police went into full damage-control mode.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

The REAL Berner Street Conspiracy

A couple of posts ago I mentioned that I believe a conspiracy DID happen in Berner Street. Let me explain what I'm talking about.

As most of you know, Charles Le Grand and J.H. Batchelor were the private investigators employed by the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They showed up in Berner Street and virtually made a beeline to Matthew Packer's shop. Why? To talk grapes. The newspapers had erroneously mentioned that grapes had been found in Stride's hand, so they figured Packer was the guy to speak with.

As most of you also know, Charles Le Grand was a crook par excellence. Not too much is known about Batchelor, although I'll mention that within a year, Le Grand assaulted HIM in the street and was brought up on charges! But more importantly, Le Grand had a habit of paying people to give false evidence. It's pretty clear that's what happened here with Packer, since it's difficult to imagine this 58 year old greengrocer conning someone like Le Grand, and employing two residents of Dutfield's Yard to back up his claims.

Le Grand enduces Packer to lie that he sold grapes to Stride and a man. To back up his claims, he gets two girls living in Dutfield's Yard to say they saw a bloody grape stalk in the yard after the body was moved. He then stages a dramatic 'hunt' in the yard which produces...SHOCK...a grapestalk from the gutter of the club.

So, we now have five people involved in a conspiracy with Charles Le Grand at the threshold. But why? To answer this, we have to asked who benefitted from this ruse? Obviously, Stride's killer did, since everyone was now looking for Packer's imaginary man. But since Packer described a gentile clerk who spoke with a 'yankee twang', the Jewish clubmen were now out of hot water as far as the readers of the popular press were concerned.

So, I started looking for a connection between either Le Grand and the club or the Vigilance Committee and the club. I couldn't find any direct connection, particularly as regards Le Grand, but there may have been an association between the IWEC and the WVC.

1) When finding patrolmen for the committee, Lusk spoke at the East End socialist clubs. While there were a number of such clubs, the Berner Street Club was a primary among them and not at all far from the Committee's Mile End digs. So, there were quite possibly some or many men from the Berner Street Club doing duty for the WVC.

2) One essay written long ago describes George Lusk as a 'Marxist'. I have not been able to corroborate this, and the essay was unsourced, so I take this with a grain of salt. However, since the Berner Street Club was co-founded by the daughter of Karl Marx, we may have an interesting correlation here.

In any event, I've yet to find a 'smoking gun' connecting the two organizations. But if one is found, we'd have to consider the possibility that Le Grand and his conspiracy were enacted to take the heat of public opinion off the club and steer the suspicions elsewhere. That was certainly the outcome, after all. But as of right now, I'm not in the least convinced that the WVC had an complicity in the affair or vested interest in the Berner Street Club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Swanson on Schwartz

DVV and others brought up the Oct. 19th 'Swanson Report' and his comment to the effect that 'if Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report leaves no doubt about it,' to suggest the police believed Schwartz. In actuality, this statement only tells us that the man who prepared the police report on Schwartz believed his story. That man was Abberline. Five weeks later, Abberline took a statement from George Hutchinson, wrote that he believed it to be true, and we all know how that ended. Hutchinson was dropped by the police as a viable witness. So too may have Schwartz been. According to the Start newspaper, this was certainly the case.

Abberline believed Schwartz to be telling the truth, and also Hutchinson. But both men gave descriptions of suspect that could be called 'night or day'. Therefore, Abberline was only giving his opinion as to his impression of the honesty of the person he was interviewing, not necessarily endorsing their evidence. Another possibility is that by the time Hutchinson sat down in front of him in November, he had come to discount Schwartz's evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

This is odd. An essay I've worked off and on with for the last couple of years happens to be called 'The Berner Street Conspirary'. Maybe it's not so odd since 90% of Michael's ideas originated from posts I made here back in '06 or '07. I wonder now if I shouldn't have published the ideas first before discussing them, but perhaps some good observations will come out of these debates.

In any event, there's very little doubt in my mind that a) a conspiracy occurred in Berner Street following the murder, and b) the Club was in serious damage control mode. But do I think there was a vast and immediate conspiracy on the part of the club to cover up the murder? No. Because it didn't matter if they had anything to do with the crime, they knew they were in a vulnerable position merely by the fact that a gentile woman had been murdered in their yard.

Was Schwartz attached to the club? Possibly, but let's consider for a moment that he was not and that what he reported seeing was accurate. He may have witnessed Morris Eagle returning home and removing a prostitute from his way into the yard. Would he have yelled an anti-Semetic epithet like Lipski? I don't see why not as the club was within spitting distance of where the Lipski crime had occurred a year before, and only a couple hours earlier, Eagle gave a speech about why Jews such as Schwartz should abandon their religion and become Socialists.

When Morris Eagle saw Stride's body in the yard, he reeled in shock. Was this because he was more squeamish than the others, as he claimed, or because he recognized the woman from 20 minutes earlier?

Do I think Eagle killed Stride? Of course not. But the implication is there, and he was witnessed by Schwartz. According to Mrs Diemschutz and others, he was the last man to enter the club before the body was discovered.

And what of PC Smith's man?

12:35 AM: Police Constable William Smith sees Stride with a young man on Berner Street opposite the International Working Men's Educational Club. The man is described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.

What the young man was carrying was possible a stack of Der Arbeter Fraint that the clubmen handed out at these meetings. The papers were about 17 or 18 inches long and 6 inches wide. A stack of these could reasonably be mistaken for a parcel wrapped in newspaper.

This is a young man standing opposite the club. Even though PC Smith obviously didn't recognize the young man as a clubman, I imagine Wess and the others did.

In short, while I don't think there was a major cover-up, I think it's quite possible that Eagle, Wess, and perhaps a couple of other men did see Liz there that night, interracted with her, and kept it to themselves.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott