The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Sam Flynn]

Carried over from the "cachous" thread. I thought that the Great Berner Street Conspiracy deserved a thread of its own.

My particular take on this evening is one of an Unfortunate having a date that she may have looked forward to....and of Socialists creating an environment that may have attracted a Ripper, from outside their ranks.

Liz is killed ... on Socialist property [...] There seems some fairly obvious motivation for club members to re-arrange some details in order to dodge suspicions.

If there were a Jewish/Socialist hush-up at Berner Street, it strikes me that all those witnesses had very little time in which to cook up their cover story.

[Sam Flynn]

Bumping this thread

... awful lot of "conspiracy and cover-up" talk leeching into other Berner Street threads, don'tcha know Why not discuss it here?

[DVV]

"...Hear ye, good people...! ...The upholders of the Berner Street Con(spiracy) are kindly invited by Sam Flynn to get shot on this thread..."

Amitiés, et bon courage,
David

[perrymason]

Seems like Im becoming the whipping boy for Club Conspiracy discussion...no doubt assisted by posting a comment of mine then downplaying any potential answers that line of questioning may provide.

So,..some snippets...

- Israel Schwartz's story was not offered at all during the Inquest
- He is a Jewish Man outside an active Socialist Jews Mens Club club at quarter to 1 in the morning, with an implausible excuse for being there.
- No-one else saw Broadshouldered Man, Pipeman...or Schwartz himself.
- No-one is seen in front of the gates by Fanny during her visits to her door from 12:45 to around 1am
- We have only Eagle and Lave suggesting the yard was empty at 12:40am, and we know that often the yard was in fact occupied after meetings until after 1am...courtesy of neighbor complaints.
- Our last sighting of Liz by the Inquest is Browns...Liz is not by the gates, but she is with company.
- Based on Blackwells estimates, Liz may have been killed as early as 12:46am, and likely not later than 12:56am. If she is killed in front of witnesses in the yard, they have perhaps 14 minutes to do some damage control before Diemshutz even arrives.
- Schwartz's story when combined with Eagles regarding the front door at 12:40am insinuates that the man Schwartz saw could not have come from the club via the Berner Street main door.
- A man who was off the property by his own statements when the murder occurred, the editor of a radical press operation in the yard, speaks before any witness at the Inquest.
- Diemshutz, Eagle, Wess, Kozebrodski and Mrs Diemshutz give key statements...all have vested interest in the club.
-Goldstein, a club member, has a gladstone full of empty cigarette cartons and inside the yard and some cottages, Cigarette Makers lived, and they said they were awake at that time
- Goldstein must have passed the gates when Liz is being killed or was already cut and down....again by Blackwell
- The International Club was categorized by officials as an Anarchists Club.
- Diemshutz and Eagle supposedly yell "another woman has been murdered" when seeking Police. Yet nothing in Liz Strides single injury would lead to an automatic conclusion this death belonged to the man that killed Annie Chapman, or Polly.
- 2 key statements are given in foreign language, Wess we know translates one of them, Goldstein's.
- The same members that on the night Stride is killed express their shock and horror at the act and the blood, yet some draw Police blood with sticks and clubs in that yard in just a few months.
- None of the members mentioned are over 30, which would put them in the right age group for anarchy and activism.
- Diemshutz says that his pony shied left when it came upon Liz on the ground, she was effectively behind the gate though.
- The Club can be accessed via that yard.
- Not one known club witness heard anything or saw anyone.
- Eagle and Lave dont see each other while in the same yard at the same time.
- A witnessed altercation by a Jewish man ....with a woman who will be murdered soon after that was completely omitted at Inquest.

They had the opportunity to create the environment that excluded a potential Club attendee, they had the need to protect the Club from any threat to its operations, and all they had to do really is all say nothing except no one was in the yard. They may have had 10 minutes or more to arrange that with other men on-site.

Liz was killed....thats all most of them knew anyway,.. and nothing about their story, whether an outsider is seen accosting her, or even if it was a club attendee, was going to raise her from the dead.

So I believe they did what they felt they must do to ensure the club and its members are not thought to be the potential murderer here.

Even if you dont want to imagine this was a concerted effort to conceal by clubmen....you must admit that by leaving Schwartz off the record, it would seem the Police didnt buy his story either. Perhaps because they knew or believed he had allegiance to the Club.

Best regards

[perrymason]

I would not be surprised if it turns out that something similar to the altercation described by Schwartz actually occurred, but it was in the yard, in front of Club witnesses. And it ended with murder, not a helping hand.

If a club thug got insulted by Liz and just lost his cool.....the people who go along with an empty yard story arent thinking they are covering up a Ripper murder, it doesnt even need to have happened like a Ripper murder by Blackwell..shes already dead at that point, ...does that mean all of them should lose their club and paper because one of the hired goons went and killed an Unfortunate hanging around? They could rush him into the club via the side door, wait until the crowd started gathering by the gates, and let him out the Berner door, where he could walk the opposite direction....and maybe be seen wiping his hands in a Lane.

I saw nothin, I heard nothin,.. and Ill be back next Saturday night for the meeting.

Best regards

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
sincerely, all this is very interesting.
Some objections, though, spring to my mind:

-The police did believe Schwartz.
-We have no evidence that Schwartz had any relation with the Club (remember he was Hungarian, apparently unable to speak Polish, nor Russian, nor English)
-Do you think that if Schwartz hadn't gone to the police with his story, suspicion would have fallen on Club members?

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,
sincerely, all this is very interesting.
Some objections, though, spring to my mind:

-The police did believe Schwartz.
-We have no evidence that Schwartz had any relation with the Club (remember he was Hungarian, apparently unable to speak Polish, nor Russian, nor English)
-Do you think that if Schwartz hadn't gone to the police with his story, suspicion would have fallen on Club members?

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

I did post a reply to this already...heaven knows where it went. The short form answers I would have for the above would be;

1. What proof is there that Schwartz was believed,...easily the most important pre-murder sighting of any Canonical murder..and he is absent from Inquest records. That most investigators thought she was killed by Jack could just mean they thought Jack came from the yard or the club.

2. These meeting were also to attract new members, the speech "Why Jews should be Socialists" intended to entice new membership. So Schwartz or a friend of his might have attended without membership....and we dont know if he was already a member.

3. If you read the Inquest reports its clear that Schwartz's story would have had great impact on the proceedings....an off site altercation with someone not from the club just before she is found dead in the yard. The Inquest without Schwartz leaves the yard or the club as the primary source for her killer.

But of course that cant be....Eagle and Lave were in that yard at the same time minutes earlier.. and didnt even see each other...let alone anyone else.

Best regards David.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
I know you've replied. But since we're now on the proper thread...
And well, your reply tells me why you think the police may had not believed Schwartz.
But it doesn't tell me why Swanson has written, 3 weeks after the event, that the police did believe Schwartz.
I'm sure you see the difference.

As to Schwartz attending the meeting, well, that's a remote possibility, since he wouldn't have understood a lot, I guess.
Just some objections, Mike, and I'm pleased to hear alternative scenarii about this very mysterious case.
I thank you for that.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,
I know you've replied. But since we're now on the proper thread...
And well, your reply tells me why you think the police may had not believed Schwartz.
But it doesn't tell me why Swanson has written, 3 weeks after the event, that the police did believe Schwartz.
I'm sure you see the difference.

As to Schwartz attending the meeting, well, that's a remote possibility, since he wouldn't have understood a lot, I guess.
Just some objections, Mike, and I'm pleased to hear alternative scenarii about this very mysterious case.
I thank you for that.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Hi David,

I guess the first one appeared on an incorrect thread?

I do see what the implication of Swansons statement is, however I do not see that backed up anywhere by his use as a key witness. Or any kind of witness. He is someone who gave translated statement as a witness...and was not asked to repeat it at the Inquest, nor was it even mentioned. Actions, or the lack of them in this case, speak louder than Swanson's words.

Schwartz might have attended with another Hungarian...there may be members already that speak foreign languages only...there is at least one in Leon Goldstein. And at least one translator associated with the club, Wess. Ill bet English was one of the least used languages in private conversations afterwards.

You dont need to indulge me David,..this either makes sense to you or it doesnt...but more and more it does seem to answer some of my questions.

All the best my friend.

[DVV]

You dont need to indulge me David,..this either makes sense to you or it doesnt...but more and more it does seem to answer some of my questions.

That was sincere, Mike,
I don't understand anything in the Stride's murder.
I admit I think she's canonical, but I really don't know how things went on.
That's why alternative scenarii are so welcome.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Sara]

So,..some snippets...

- Based on Blackwells estimates, Liz may have been killed as early as 12:46am, and likely not later than 12:56am. If she is killed in front of witnesses in the yard, they have perhaps 14 minutes to do some damage control before Diemshutz even arrives.

- A man who was off the property by his own statements when the murder occurred, the editor of a radical press operation in the yard, speaks before any witness at the Inquest.
- The International Club was categorized by officials as an Anarchists Club.
1) - 2 key statements are given in foreign language, Wess we know translates one of them, Goldstein's.
- None of the members mentioned are over 30, which would put them in the right age group for anarchy and activism.

- Diemshutz and Eagle supposedly yell "another woman has been murdered" when seeking Police. Yet nothing in Liz Strides single injury would lead to an automatic conclusion this death belonged to the man that killed Annie Chapman, or Polly.

- Diemshutz says that his pony shied left when it came upon Liz on the ground, she was effectively behind the gate though.

They had the opportunity to create the environment that excluded a potential Club attendee, they had the need to protect the Club from any threat to its operations, and all they had to do really is all say nothing except no one was in the yard. They may have had 10 minutes or more to arrange that with other men on-site.

Liz was killed....thats all most of them knew anyway,.. and nothing about their story, whether an outsider is seen accosting her, or even if it was a club attendee, was going to raise her from the dead.

So I believe they did what they felt they must do to ensure the club and its members are not thought to be the potential murderer here.

This is an interesting set of observations indeed! I don't feel qualified to add anything to the points made about individual witnesses, for or against.

- I would note though, as a general point, that these anarchists/socialists are 'idealists' and it would be very unlikely such people would automatically agree to lie about it if Stride had just been murdered by one of their own.

- It would be natural for the editor involved in the radical press to be 'spokesman' since he would be educated, be able to speak English (or was English?), and would probably be accustomed to public speaking. From what we know of such people, he was no doubt something of a 'leader' among the group of 'comrades'

- I don't think the 'another woman' was referring to any murderer in particular - someome was just exclaiming on the remarkable fact that yet another woman had been killed in the same area, surely?

- Animals inc horses have a very acute sense of smell, and horses in general dislike the smell of blood; they will also shy at anything unexpected, esp in an environment which is familiar to them ('home turf'). In addition they have vision which enables them to see beside and to quite a degree behind themselves - so it's very likely the horse was shying at the body

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Whether what Schwartz said was true or not, the likeliest scenario of Liz's murder is that her killer was somehow affiliated with that club, rather than being the Ripper. Though it seems a bit conspiratorial and, well, I don't want to say silly, but...

[DVV]

- I would note though, as a general point, that these anarchists/socialists are 'idealists' and it would be very unlikely such people would automatically agree to lie about it if Stride had just been murdered by one of their own.

Hello Sara,
I agree that "it would be very unlikely" that ALL of them would have agree to lie about a murder, but this has nothing to do with their political opinion.
The "idealist" Diemshutz used to run his own little business, and certainly told lies about the grapes.

Amitiés,
David

[Supe]

Sara,

Sorry, but they weren't "idealists." They were extreme ideologues at "war" with capitalism and what they considered its oppresive establishment, represented by, among many things, the police. I don't believe in a socialist conspiracy based at the Club, but that the members would lie to protect the movement, even if it meant impeding the investigation into an innocent woman's murder, would not surprise me.

Don.

[perrymason]

Sara,

Sorry, but they weren't "idealists." They were extreme ideologues at "war" with capitalism and what they considered its oppresive establishment, represented by, among many things, the police. I don't believe in a socialist conspiracy based at the Club, but that the members would lie to protect the movement, even if it meant impeding the investigation into an innocent woman's murder, would not surprise me.

Don.

Hi all,

Sara thanks for a really thoughtful post, and Don, its nice to say that I agree with your overview above. Its what has allowed me to speculate a bit further, that at the least, there are logical motives for a cover-up if it occurred.....both to protect the "cause", and protect the more capitalist aspects of the location,...its paying members and the radical press on site.

I just want to be sure Im clear that I am not suggesting a Club member killed Liz and all covered it up neccesarily..Im only really suggesting that someone from that property that night was perhaps her killer, and to avoid undue scrutiny and the ruination of the club and the paper, all should say the yard was empty and they heard nothing. They had time to do so if Liz was cut closer to the earliest estimate by Blackwell.

Schwartz's story suggests the man that probably killed her also accosted her on the street, BSM...the 2 of them are alone in front of the gates when the witnesses leave....and BSM could not have come from the club based on Schwartz, and Eagle.

Im sure they would have loved some evidence like that at the Inquest...funny with the written support of the story as David points out that they didnt get him on the stand. Or even mentioned.

Best regards Don, Sara, David, all.