The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Ben]

Ah, okay.

Thanks for the clarification, Mike.

[Jeff Leahy]

When is a Conspiracy a Conspiracy?

Hello all,

I guess Im getting lost with the plot formation here,....we have the Pipeman and BSM identified as detectives, and Schwartz as a pedlar happening by? turns out Packer did sell Liz and a Toff some grapes, and that means if Jack killed her he's a Toff, and Brown must have seen other people....and why is this likely again? Do The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen make an appearance at some point?

A murder which by action alone could have been committed by anyone with a knife and a mean disposition was committed on anarchist Socialists property on an active night when some 28 people were still in attendance from the close to 200 that were there earlier.

Any "conspiracy" theory need only address that fact.

Self preservation is the logical and simple to execute proposition here, all witness testimony from club associated persons suggested no club attendee could have done this since none were around. Schwartz is only strongly supported in a reminiscence, and has no Inquest witness creds, so the reality is his story is unsupported formally, even if supported informally.

What is the issue to any theory is where did the man come from....was he Mr Grapes, or was he Broadshouldered Man....was he a club attendee, a returning Pipeman, or even Jack.....

Since this murder is atypical of a Ripper murder I dont know that inserting a Ripper type suspect high on the probability charts is warranted or wise. This is always the most debated murder, the least likely Ripper murder, and the one that has an obvious opportunity and motive built in for enhancing the position of the club with the most relevant evidence given almost exclusively by people connected with the club.

Best regards

Hi Michael

As you know I dont buy conspiracy theories, largely because cover-ups are usually exposed and people arnt good at keeping secrets. However, you now seem to be suggesting something else, and i'm not certain conspiracy is the right word.

Certainly the idea of some porkies to protect the club sits better with me than conspiracy. But is there any real or hard evidence to support this claim or suggestion?

Yours Pirate

[The Good Michael]

Hey Pirate!

I agree about conspiracies in general, yet isn't an attempt to control damage a conspiracy if a few control the dissemination of information?

Cheers,

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Hey Pirate!

I agree about conspiracies in general, yet isn't an attempt to control damage a conspiracy if a few control the dissemination of information?

Cheers,

Mike

I dont know I was asking you?

I don't want a silly debate about semantics. It just seems to me the word conspiracy seems to suggest a group of people concocting a story together, where as damage limitation is more of an every day, lets leave some of the story out sort of senario.

However there could be lots of reasons why all the peices don't fit, and it doesnt necessarily mean people lied or deliberately contrived a story.

confusion, poor memory?

As far as Packer is concerned. Perhaps there was an element of truth, it was raining up until eleven...perhap's he saw someone else earlier in the evening?

Pirate

[The Good Michael]

Wait. You were asking the other Michael. I was just offering an opinion that conspiracy can take subtle forms. I did this in the form of a rhetorical question.

As for Packer. I don't know that everything was a lie, but he certainly was like the boy who cried wolf if nothing else.

Mike

[Jon Guy]

The one thing that strikes me about Packer`s various statements is that there was an American staying at the Club, who by his own account left the club for a breath of fresh air around 12.30 am -Joseph Lave.

[Jeff Leahy]

The one thing that strikes me about Packer`s various statements is that there was an American staying at the Club, who by his own account left the club for a breath of fresh air around 12.30 am -Joseph Lave.

Yeah, but no rain after 11 pm. I think you have to discard Packers evidence.

[perrymason]

The one thing that strikes me about Packer`s various statements is that there was an American staying at the Club, who by his own account left the club for a breath of fresh air around 12.30 am -Joseph Lave.

Hi Jon,

Actually Lave was a renting cottager, and he stated he left his cottage and was in the yard...even out as far as the open gates, until 12:40am,...which is when Eagle says he entered the yard to go in the side door. Neither corroborates the other with a sighting of the other.

Pirate on the notion of a Conspiracy....if a group decides to use an opportunity to fabricate a story or details within it that is uniformly presented by all parties within the group to the authorities....you have conspiracy.

In this case, of the main witnesses in the picture after PC Smith had left, we have Brown, Schwartz, Fanny, Goldstein, Diemshutz, Eagle, Kozebrodski, Mrs Diemshutz, and Lave, ...and Schwartz may well be affiliated in some manner, even as a meeting attendee.

Only Brown and Fanny have outsider perspectives....and thats why I choose to accept their remarks, they can have no ulterior motive.

Liz is cut by 12:56 by the Senior medical mans estimates, and perhaps as early as 12:46...either of which allows for ample time to do damage control with a simple "empty yard/no-one saw or heard anything" story.

Best regards all.

[Chris]

Liz is cut by 12:56 by the Senior medical mans estimates, and perhaps as early as 12:46...

Actually, according to most reports of Blackwell's inquest testimony, he thought that she had been dead not more than 20-30 minutes when he saw her - not that she had been dead for more than 20 minutes:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=21678&postcount=192

[perrymason]

Actually, according to most reports of Blackwell's inquest testimony, he thought that she had been dead not more than 20-30 minutes when he saw her - not that she had been dead for more than 20 minutes:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=192

I think the quote that is attributed to him that spells it out the best Chris, is that he said based on his arrival at 1:16am, the woman "could not have been cut more than 20 minutes before my arrival, at the most, 1 half hour."

By the phrasing it seems to me he is strongly endorsing 20 minutes or less as the timing, but allowing for as much as 30 minutes as his safety position.

If this wound was hours old I would think we could question the accuracy of the estimate, but one that "fresh" seems to me to be well within his capacity.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

i'd definitely keep going Perrymason, because i cant see the Ripper having killed Stride, so you could be onto something here.

[Simon Wood]

Nice going Michael,

To Blackwell's statement that Stride "could not have been cut more than 20 minutes before my arrival, at the most, 1 half hour" factor in another of his observations, "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Now try to square that with [a] Stride being dead at 1.00 am, and [b] the "Ripper" being interrupted by Diemschitz at 1.00 am.

It doesn't work. Stride being a Ripper victim is utter nonsense.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

I think a key phrase is being left out here. His statement should be prefaced by "in my opinion" or " I think" or "I believe." Again, what we have is an estimate not a cold hard fact. What tests did he perform to arrive at the time of death? Let's get real here. This ain't C.S.I. Miami. It is simply an estimate done in 1888 not the word of God.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi CD,

By the time Wynne Baxter mangled the medical evidence in his summing-up, Stride "had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death."

That's really squaring the circle.

Regards,

Simon

[perrymason]

Hi again folks,

Thanks for the support gents. To answer your question cd, I do think a wound as recently made as this one was allows us to extend the estimate credibility to Dr Blackwell. We know for a fact that PC Smith saw Liz near 12:35, so the time frame here is within 50 minutes without Schwartz, Brown or any additional witnesses.

I believe by the wound and blood flow alone, he was capable of making an accurate call. He does after all give himself leeway with his addition of 10 minutes earlier after his guesstimate. It places Goldstein, not Diemshutz as most likely at or near the scene when Liz is being killed or already down..but both are Club members, so in this scenario both stories may have reason to reduce the level of suspicion that would directed at the Club automatically when a woman is found with a single cut in their yard.

As I said before, if Liz had her abdomen mutilated, they wouldnt have had to bother...that would be Jack, and no other member would be convinced that backing the story about the club was better than turning the man in and getting the reward money.

Best regards cd, all.