Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:
"You talk about a type of horse that is known to be sensitive"

Riding-school horses? Known to be sensitive? I assure you, Harry, these beasts come in all colours, shapes and mind-sets. Moreover, if there is one quality singled out by those who make their living from the riding-schools when it comes to choosing their animals, it is a calm mind. The more nervous horses are sorted out, since people do not wish to pay for riding a horse that may run off, throwing their riders to the ground.

In general, though, no matter how flegmatic and streetwise a horse is, it belongs to a type of animal with much nerves and cautiosness. Add to this what Claire says about the sensitive smelling ability, and you are dealing with an animal that is very prone to shying when new elements are introduced into itīs surroundings.

That, Harry, is my learned opinion. Moreover, it is the experience of anyone who has been dealing with horses.

All the best!

Fisherman

[claire]

Hi Harry,
Definitely not an expert on equine beasties per se, but my daughter used to ride ponies regularly. One of the beasts she used to ride regularly was used on a daily basis for beach treks, cross country, suburban and used to people and all sorts of noisy, smelly and disruptive stuff. One time, they rounded some sand dunes and the pony started shying off, complaining, refusing to go further. When my daughter jumped down and walked the 30 or so yards to the other side of the dune, there was a dead fur seal, quite newly dead as not decayed and not giving off noticeable smells. So I think even hardy ponies are pretty sensitive. Just one example, though, of course.

[harry]

Fisherman,
Not an expert ,no,but not completely ignorant either.You talk about a type of horse that is known to be sensitive,but it is one kind out of many,and I doubt that Diemschulz needed one that was trained for fancy tricks.As Mike says,it was reported to be a pony that pulled the cart,so perhaps you will give us your learned opinion on such animals,or are you just as dumb as I,and them.

[Moriarty]

Nay, Moriarty, I think he`s implying English ponies take drugs.

Test- horse- terone?

[Jon Guy]

[QUOTE=Moriarty;40844
I thought we were talking about Rip Artists not Rap Artists?[/QUOTE]

Nay, Moriarty, I think he`s implying English ponies take drugs.

[Moriarty]

[QUOTEThen they're very much like the bruthas of Compton, according to Eazy E, who writes: 'The boyz in the hood are always hard, come talkin' that trash I'll pull your card. Nothin' else matters but to be legit, don't quote me boy I ain't said sh*t.' While Eazy E might not appreciate me quoting him here, I thought the point relevant to the discussion.
QUOTE]

I thought we were talking about Rip Artists not Rap Artists?

[Tom_Wescott]

as English ponies are hard.

Then they're very much like the bruthas of Compton, according to Eazy E, who writes: 'The boyz in the hood are always hard, come talkin' that trash I'll pull your card. Nothin' else matters but to be legit, don't quote me boy I ain't said sh*t.' While Eazy E might not appreciate me quoting him here, I thought the point relevant to the discussion.

As to Harry's unanswered question, Diemschutz was in a cart being pulled by the pony. After the pony shied and the Diemster realized something was in the way, he stopped the pony and hopped down.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

A dead body that didn't reek of decay would certainly pose no problem for the street-wise equine, unless it was in the way, perhaps. Swedish horses would not have this street sense as there are no proper cities in Sweden in which they could become inured.

Excellent point, Michael.

I have been studying Horse Behavioural Sciences for donkey`s years, and I can safely say that Diemschutz` pony was not an English pony, as English ponies are hard.

[The Good Michael]

Hold on there Nellie! I think this was a pony, first. Yet, I want to say that a pony that has been up and down the streets of the East End would have grown accustomed to obnoxious drunks, horrible smells, and loud noises. A dead body that didn't reek of decay would certainly pose no problem for the street-wise equine, unless it was in the way, perhaps. Swedish horses would not have this street sense as there are no proper cities in Sweden in which they could become inured.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry!

You donīt have to tell us that you are not an expert when it comes to horses - it shows!
Horses are (of course with individual variations) very sensitive animals. My family is very much into horse-riding (with the exception of yours truly), and I have on numerous occasions seen how horses shy away from things that seem completely harmless. Once, when the horses in "our" riding school entered the paddock, a few of the commercial signs lining the sides had been changed for new ones. It sent two horses fleeing at full pace through the paddock, whereas a number of the rest shied every time the approached the signs on their way around the paddock.
Altering anything in a horses close environment will very often disturb the horse much, much more than you would think possible!

The best,

Fisherman

[harry]

It might well be that there is rejection of the circumstances surrounding Strides death,because it appears too much of a coincidental nature occured in a short space of time,stretching coincidence to unacceptable limits.
One only has to read of 'The shark arm murder case' to understand that there should be no limit set,especially in murder cases.Coincidence,or chance,in it's multiple forms,is a fact of everyday life.It happens,and is unavoidable.
That is why I believe that the arrival of Diemschutz and his cart,coincided with the killing of Stride,and prevented the furtherance of any activity on the part of the murderer,except for flight.Unless the killer was stone deaf,the sound of wheels and hooves on cobled stones,would have signalled the arrival of a possible threat.
The real problem as I see it,is the lack of good information,on which to form a sound opinion.How far had the horse penetrated the yard before shieing?Had the horse at least passed the body?I doubt it would have been bothered by anything except in it's immediate path,and the body would have been lying to one side.The smell of blood?Well the gate was open,and if the sense of smell was that strong,it would have stopped before entering.?
Was Diemschutz on foot leading the horse into the yard,or on the cart.Nevertheless he says he had entered the yard when he saw a dark bundle,and on stricking a light saw the body.So the horse was in the yard,and probably the cart too,and as the body was just inside and against the wall,it wasn't the body that caused the horse to shie.( that's my opinion).
Which leaves something or someone else present.
I am not an expert on horse behaviour.but I have observed that the animals will shie away if a person stands too near,or pass too near, their head,and Stride we all know was in no condition to do that.

[Jon Guy]

But as I said, the possibility that the Ripper did kill her, stands and falls with Schwartz's story, as far as I am concerned. That his story may have been complete bollocks must be seriously considered since his story is not supported by any other witness statement and also creates a lot of problems with the timings of incidents.

It may be bollocks, Glenn, but I have shown on the thread "Isreal Schwartz` Observation", that if the keffufle took place inside the gates, the timings and witness statements do fit.

[Dan Norder]

Just for the sake of accuracy,you didn't mean that noises were heard at the Nichols murder did you,Dan ?

I meant exactly what I wrote: there were reports of noises heard at the Nichols murder, among the other reports of other sounds and sightings at multiple crime scenes that I listed. I also said some of them are probably inaccurate. The Nichols report probably was not correct. But there are certainly a lot of people how make arguments based solely upon their own wild speculations about what happened and didn't and use those speculations to try to back up other speculations. These people basically are in circular arguments that come down to "it was this way because I said so and will ignore all evidence to the contrary as well as the opinions of experts on the topic" -- and Glenn is one of the primary offenders.

[harry]

I tend to believe that perhaps a majority of people approach the Stride situation with a false assumption.It is that the person who encountered her at the entrance to the yard,did immediately and without provocation,begin a vicious assault to her person.This I am sure is fostered by the police interpretation as a result of an interview with Schwartz.
While we do not have the contents of the interview to peruse,we do have two slightly different accounts of what Schwartz said,one by the police and one by a newspaper.
While I side with neither as to which is the more accurate and truthfull,both institutions have a known tendency to pad and suggest answers given by a person interviewed.Such I am sure happened with Schwartz,a person who could speak little or no english,but did so through an interpreter,whose mastery of both languages is unknown.
I do believe however that there is a famework of information we can accept,and on which we can build our own intrpretation,and if that differs from the official accepted version,it will not mean that it should be discarded because of that fact.
What I accept is this.Schartz did follow a male person along Berner Street.He did see an altercation between that male person and a femal at the entrance to Duffield yard.He did see another male at the corner of Berner Street,and that person did ,in all probability,move towards him.That is it!
While we know a great deal about Stride,we know nothing of the man she encountered at Duffield's yard.So concentrating on Stride we know that she solicited men for sex,so it would not be out of character for her to have made the first approach at Duffield yard,by standing in his way,and he ,
rejecting her advances,perhaps unneccessarily forcibly,flung her away causing her to fall.A scenario one can see enacted even in these days.
Then he continued on his way.Who then approaches her?None other than the companion whom Brown saw her with,who had not departed the scene,but had stood at the corner of Berner street,and now saw an opportunity to move in once again.Such a person,having shown no ill will earlier.is,in my opinion,onewho would have a chance of attacking unexpectedly,either in or just outside the yard.
Could this person have been the Ripper?I believe so.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

How,

I think you totally miss the importance of the official summary reports, since they would naturally include any information that would be considered vital. Fact remains that the complete lack of mentioning of Kidney's name in Swanson's report is quite remarkable even for its time, considering that
a) he was the spouse of the victim
b) she had just recently left him, and that at least one witness close to Stride gave evidence of that the relationship weren't that cosy
c) his aggressive and drunken behaviour at the police station didn't display a man with exactly pleasant character traits, that would make any alarm bells ring.

Apart from the very small passage (only a short sentence, which in itself is quite telling) from Swanson about her 'close associates' being investigated (although we don't know who or to which extent), there is nothing in his report or the other police files concerning the murder that indicates that it was treated as anything else than a Ripper murder. And again - most likely it was the Eddowes murder the same night that brought on this focus on the investigation.

Now, I seriously doubt that any suspect in 1888 would be ruled out based on a witness description. We don't even know if Schwartz was presented to a suspect parade, since there is no such indication in any internal memo that this ever happened (as far as I know, but I could be wrong).
Secondly, we have no idea what Kidney really looked like. All we have is a sketch from a newspaper artist. Sure, The Penny Illustrated Paper appears to have made rather high quality sketches, though, if we compare to the awful illustrations made by the Illustrated Police News where people look quite demented. But it is still only a newspaper sketch and not even close to evidence of any kind.

And as you know, witness descriptions are far from reliable anyway. I know from experience how even the most obvious and striking details in a face can be viewed totally different depending on who the witness is.
So I'm sorry, I don't think any suspect would be ruled out on grounds of witness descriptions and judging from other incidents in the Ripper case it appears as the police at least on those issues were fairly open-minded and didn't exclude any important suspect on such grounds.

Once again, if Kidney was investigated and dismissed we don't know WHY. There is no mentioning of any alibi in the police report, so of course his dismissal could be explained by other factors, like that there was no evidence against him and the authorities thus decided to push the Ripper angle more seriously since they were under immense pressure from the news media and the general public to catch the Ripper. Too many people are not taking this into account to the extent they should. The police had since the Chapman murder been under enormous pressure and now all of the sudden there were two murders the same night, one of them witout a doubt a Ripper crime.

But again - let me once again make myself clear on the matter that I am not in any way prepared to totally dismiss Stride as a Ripper victim. What I am saying is, that if the Ripper didn't kill her, then the most likely suspect has to be Kidney.
But as I said, the possibility that the Ripper did kill her, stands and falls with Schwartz's story, as far as I am concerned. That his story may have been complete bollocks must be seriously considered since his story is not supported by any other witness statement and also creates a lot of problems with the timings of incidents.

All the best