Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[The Good Michael]

I'd have to say that it's most likely Stride's killer had left shortly before Diemschutz arrived.

Yet, that pony coming down the road could still have been an interruption, though I'm not going there.

I think either way is possible, and I don't believe there is a way to weigh one argument as being heavier than the other. It comes down to a matter of if you believe JTR did it or not, which is really a backwards way to decide this side issue, as the case against JTR doesn't rely on Rippus Interruptus alone, and the case for JTR doesn't either.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Harry,

I don't wish to argue minutia with you. Diemschutz felt the body on the ground is what caused the pony to shy. If Diemschutz's words aren't good enough for you, nothing I say will be, so I'll save my energy. Yes, the gate was on the right side if you're in the street, and on the left if you're in the yard (as Fish and Begg mean when they say left). It was in the gate next to Stride's body. He may or may not have used it. He may or may not have been in the passageway when Diemschutz arrived, so your points are certainly valid ones. I've waivered on this issue over the years.

The significance of the point is - if he had already left, then he was NOT interrupted by Diemschutz and presumably did not intend further mutilation on Stride (unless he was spooked by the party and just didn't want to risk it). If he WAS interrupted by Diem then obviously there's a great argument for his work not having been finished, ala Nichols. But since Louis and Co. couldn't be sure if there was or wasn't someone else in the passageway with him, how are we to be? I'd have to say that it's most likely Stride's killer had left shortly before Diemschutz arrived.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Since you direct yourself to Tom, Harry, I will only point one minor thing out to you:
When the club members came out of the club and a match was struck, that match was blown out by the wind, although it did provide enough of a flickering light for them to see the body.
If you couple this with your assertion that the horse must have felt the scent of blood on entering the yard, I think you will realize that this could well have been very much affected by that wind.

The best!
Fisherman

[harry]

Well first off,in no book that I have read on the matter,and I have read many,does it state that Diemschultz said the horse shieing was due to the body being there.He is stated to have said the horse shied,he (Diemschultz) looked down and saw a dark bundle.The horse (pony) must therefore have passed,at least his sight and smell organs,the spot where the body lay.Had the body lain directly in the path,and not to one side,I would agree the bodywas the cause of the pony shieing,but it wasn't so.
As for the smell of blood,that would have been apparant to it as soon as the pony turned into the yard,yet it must have disregarded it.
aA different question.How would the pony know that it was a dead body lying there?He would have seen,if he was interested,just as much as Diemschultz,a dark bundle,and I am sure,in the London of that time,dark bundles were two a penny.Not in that yard,no,but elsewhere?
The wicker gate was set into the right hand gate,and gave access when the gates were closed.The gates were about 4ft 5inches each,in width,but I am sure the wicker gate plays no part in the proceedings.
We don't know Tom, that it was the first time the horse had shied,and although it's cause may have been otherwise,I doubt it had ever encountered a killer passing it's path,in the yard or anywhere else,and that's what I believe happened.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Diemschutz knew his pony better than us and he felt the pony shied due to the body, so I see no reason not to accept that as the likely reason."

Nor do I - it is by far the best and most logical explanation, combined with the fact that we have no ceratin knowledge of any other phenomenon present in the yard that may have scared the pony.

"Incidentally, if the Ripper were, in fact, hiding behind the gate, he could have escaped undetected by the Diemster simply by opening the wicker gate and walking through it once Diemschutz had moved on down the yard."

That passageway was about 280 centimetres wide, Tom. To me, this suggests that if the space behind the left hand gate (the one fitted with the wicker gate) was to accomodate a hiding Ripper, it would need to be swung up on itīs hinges so far out in the yard, that it would have made the passage into the yard a difficult one. We can see from contemporary drawings that the doors were almost as wide as the passage itself, leaving very little space behind them when they were fully open. And we know that Diemschitz said at the inquest that both doors of the gate were wide open when he drove into the yard.
To this we must add that if it had been swung up thus far, and if the Ripper DID hide behind it, walking through the wicker gate would only have made him step right into the middle of the passage. If Diemschitz had entered the club, why not just walk around the gate and leave?
Of course, we have also the problem of why the Ripper would have chosen to hide behind the gate furthest away from the body of Stride. And if he had gone for the right hand gate, then there would not have been any wicker gate in it.
I donīt see the Ripper hiding in that yard OR behind one of those gates. Then again, I donīt see him there at all at any point, as you know. I think that Strideīs killer was BS man, and that he had left the yard before Diemschitz entered it.

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm a simple man, Fish. Diemschutz knew his pony better than us and he felt the pony shied due to the body, so I see no reason not to accept that as the likely reason. Could the Ripper have been behind the gate? Sure, but then why would the pony have shied from him and NOT the body, which was out in the open? Incidentally, if the Ripper were, in fact, hiding behind the gate, he could have escaped undetected by the Diemster simply by opening the wicker gate and walking through it once Diemschutz had moved on down the yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Well, then you should have written that Diemschitz had a pony and not a BIG horse. Such things could save you many a remark from clever people like me

Besides, knowledgeable as I am in equestrian matters, I can tell you that there are Shetlanders, A-ponies, B-ponies, C-ponies and D-ponies, all differing a whole lot in size, and the latter one often being mistaken for a "big" horse.

All that aside, Iīm glad to finally be joined by somebody who holds my own belief - that Diemschitzīpony would in all probability have been scared by the combination of the bloodscent and the dark figure lying on the ground. When I first stated this, I could not imagine that it would make me the target for a dozen upset posts, but there you are ...

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I know a pony is a horse, but it's a SMALL horse, and most the talk on this thread has people thinking of BIG horses, so I thought the distinction should be made.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Diemschutz had a pony not a horse"

Believe it or not, Tom, but a pony IS a horse.

"The pony should have been able to detect Stride by sight AND smell simueltaneously ... and the only time the pony shies is when there happens to be a dead body there. That's a lot of coincidence to swallow"

...which is exactly what I am saying. No killer needed in that yard, by that time.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

A couple of quick points. Diemschutz had a pony not a horse. That means it's head would have been maybe a foot from the ground, whereas Diemschutz would have been atop his cart. The pony should have been able to detect Stride by sight AND smell simueltaneously. The fact is, the Dieminator drove that pony in those gates every day and the only time the pony shies is when there happens to be a dead body there. That's a lot of coincidence to swallow. Kinda like the coincidence of a woman being murdered that same hour and brisk jaunt away. Hmmmm....

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Going back a bit, but I'd agree 100% with the view that the behaviour of the broad-shouldered man is consistent with other serial killers. One need only look at Peter Sutcliffe for an example of a serialist capable of both accosting women in a "blitz" style AND enveigling them under a false pretense.

[harry]

Fisherman,
Thank you.Just wanted to be enlightened.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

I thought I was through with the horse business ...

Just one thing on the horses vision, and the bit you heard about never standing in front of or behind the horse: That is due to the fact that the horses eyes are set in such a fashion so as to provide a very large field of vision. The only parts it does not have total visual control over are the parts right in front of them and right behind them.
To some extent, this is what causes horses to suddenly shy away from objects they have been heading towards. Unless they turn their heads, they will not be able to see things very well right in front of them, and if something, a frightened animal or a windswept leaf or something else, moves away from a space right in front of them and out to the side, they suddenly appear almost from nowhere as far as the horse is concerned, and the horse may shy.

Can we get out of the saddles now?

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
I also do not know how strong or weak is the sight of a horse compared to humans,but more than one human being stated how dark that part of the yard was that night.Now if the smell of blood was so strong to the pony's senses,I would have expected it to have shied and stopped immediately it entered the yard.Sight would then have been immaterial.But it didn't.
That is according to one well known Ripper author.It shied,this author states, citing the evidence of Diemschultz,at the same time as the cart wheel came into contact with some object in it's path.Now the only object that was noticed by Diemschultz,was a dark bundle that was Strides body.So if this is true,and who would doubt such noted author,even if the wheel contacted the feet,it is simple to deduce that the pony's smelling apparatus had failed to detect anything untill the pony's head was some feet past the body,if it detected any smell at all.
I wonder if anyone asked Diemschultz as to his thoughts on why the pony shied.I can find no reference that states they did,and nothing that states he volunteered a reason.Unless the wheel striking the object and the shieing of the pony is to be seen as cause and effect.
One last thing.When young,I was told the following.Never stand ,within arms lenghth,directly in front of a horse,nor within an arms length,directly behind one,a horse was liable to react.One could not stand immediately behind the pony in that yard because of the cart,but in front?

[Fisherman]

Hi Mike!

Iīve spent a fair number of my days around horses too, and since all the rest of my family (wife and three kids) are VERY enthustiastic riders, I have a feeling that neither me nor my wallet will be able to steer free from them for the next few years...

On the subject itself, my wiew is that the killer was no longer around when Diemschutz arrived. But your guess carries just as much value, of course, there is little use denying that.
Be that as it may, I think that IF he was there, he would have been hiding quite some distance from the body, in the inner parts of the yard. If he decided on letting the body lie and go into hiding, the approaching sound of the horse and carriage must have allowed him ample time to get out of the passageway itself, and therefore I do not think that nor sight or smell of him was what stirred the horse. Moreover, since there was a stable and a vivacious club around, I think that situations where the horse was faced with people moving about in that yard would have been quite common to it. If there had not been a blood-smelling body lying around in the exact direction from which the horse shied, I would have been more inclined to accept that the shying could have been the result of the killer moving within the yard. As it stands, that notion must be quite secondary to that of the body causing it all.

In the end, it is perhaps time to listen to an old proverb, though: No sense flogging a dead horse ...

The very best, Mike!
Fisherman