Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

No, I'm saying that he walked his girl home and arrived back at the club about 12:40am, which is what he and other club members testified to.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that Morris arrived quite late for the meeting?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Her murder is hard to reconcile, period. Nevertheless, if Pipeman were the last man seen with her, it just is what it is. He killed her because he was Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

I get it. It's good, but why would Pipeman come over and kill her? That is difficult to reconcile, I believe.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz scenario - What are your thoughts?

Michael (and anyone else interested),

According to other club members, Morris Eagle was the only club member arriving about the time BS Man would have been in play, so it's very possible he was the man Schwartz saw when you consider that Schwartz did not see anything beyond the man standing at the gateway. Stride would have been hidden in relative darkness and likely only visible to someone TURNING INTO THE PASSAGEWAY. Schwartz sees Pipeman start running across the street and Schwartz books it. Pipeman comes to a stop at the corner, Schwartz is gone, and Morris Eagle goes on into the club. It's now only Pipeman on the corner and Liz on the pavement, picking herself up. Stride is either called over to Pipeman or sees an opportunity in him and walks to the corner. James Brown enters the scene and sees them. This is the last time Stride is seen alive.

A little while later, Diemschutz discovers the body and calls other club members down. Morris Eagle is affected more than the others by his own admission and the testimony of others. Why is this? Perhaps he recognized her from 20 minutes earlier.

This is just one scenario, but you'll notice it doesn't require omitting Schwartz or Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. I don't know about Morris the Cat, however. I do think if JTR killed her it wasn't because he wanted to do it there, just that he had to, and that he could have been at least a part time member, but I have no evidence and I ain't going there.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Good Michael Hunting,

You're absolutely right in that interruption is not the deciding issue, and with all the analysis we've done we still cannot be certain of interruption, so it's pretty much a moot point.
I don't think the pony and cart would be an interrupting factor unless the killer knew it was Diemschutz and slipped back in the club, which I don't think is likely. I do think BS Man might have been Morris Eagle just trying to get the prostitute out of his club's yard. But that's another story.
Leon Goldstein walked right by the club pre-Diemschutz and that may or may not have upset the killer. I don't think it would have and therefore I don't think the pony and cart would have because he wouldn't know they'd be turning in there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

I'd have to say that it's most likely Stride's killer had left shortly before Diemschutz arrived.

Yet, that pony coming down the road could still have been an interruption, though I'm not going there.

I think either way is possible, and I don't believe there is a way to weigh one argument as being heavier than the other. It comes down to a matter of if you believe JTR did it or not, which is really a backwards way to decide this side issue, as the case against JTR doesn't rely on Rippus Interruptus alone, and the case for JTR doesn't either.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Harry,

I don't wish to argue minutia with you. Diemschutz felt the body on the ground is what caused the pony to shy. If Diemschutz's words aren't good enough for you, nothing I say will be, so I'll save my energy. Yes, the gate was on the right side if you're in the street, and on the left if you're in the yard (as Fish and Begg mean when they say left). It was in the gate next to Stride's body. He may or may not have used it. He may or may not have been in the passageway when Diemschutz arrived, so your points are certainly valid ones. I've waivered on this issue over the years.

The significance of the point is - if he had already left, then he was NOT interrupted by Diemschutz and presumably did not intend further mutilation on Stride (unless he was spooked by the party and just didn't want to risk it). If he WAS interrupted by Diem then obviously there's a great argument for his work not having been finished, ala Nichols. But since Louis and Co. couldn't be sure if there was or wasn't someone else in the passageway with him, how are we to be? I'd have to say that it's most likely Stride's killer had left shortly before Diemschutz arrived.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Since you direct yourself to Tom, Harry, I will only point one minor thing out to you:
When the club members came out of the club and a match was struck, that match was blown out by the wind, although it did provide enough of a flickering light for them to see the body.
If you couple this with your assertion that the horse must have felt the scent of blood on entering the yard, I think you will realize that this could well have been very much affected by that wind.

The best!
Fisherman

[harry]

Well first off,in no book that I have read on the matter,and I have read many,does it state that Diemschultz said the horse shieing was due to the body being there.He is stated to have said the horse shied,he (Diemschultz) looked down and saw a dark bundle.The horse (pony) must therefore have passed,at least his sight and smell organs,the spot where the body lay.Had the body lain directly in the path,and not to one side,I would agree the bodywas the cause of the pony shieing,but it wasn't so.
As for the smell of blood,that would have been apparant to it as soon as the pony turned into the yard,yet it must have disregarded it.
aA different question.How would the pony know that it was a dead body lying there?He would have seen,if he was interested,just as much as Diemschultz,a dark bundle,and I am sure,in the London of that time,dark bundles were two a penny.Not in that yard,no,but elsewhere?
The wicker gate was set into the right hand gate,and gave access when the gates were closed.The gates were about 4ft 5inches each,in width,but I am sure the wicker gate plays no part in the proceedings.
We don't know Tom, that it was the first time the horse had shied,and although it's cause may have been otherwise,I doubt it had ever encountered a killer passing it's path,in the yard or anywhere else,and that's what I believe happened.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Diemschutz knew his pony better than us and he felt the pony shied due to the body, so I see no reason not to accept that as the likely reason."

Nor do I - it is by far the best and most logical explanation, combined with the fact that we have no ceratin knowledge of any other phenomenon present in the yard that may have scared the pony.

"Incidentally, if the Ripper were, in fact, hiding behind the gate, he could have escaped undetected by the Diemster simply by opening the wicker gate and walking through it once Diemschutz had moved on down the yard."

That passageway was about 280 centimetres wide, Tom. To me, this suggests that if the space behind the left hand gate (the one fitted with the wicker gate) was to accomodate a hiding Ripper, it would need to be swung up on itīs hinges so far out in the yard, that it would have made the passage into the yard a difficult one. We can see from contemporary drawings that the doors were almost as wide as the passage itself, leaving very little space behind them when they were fully open. And we know that Diemschitz said at the inquest that both doors of the gate were wide open when he drove into the yard.
To this we must add that if it had been swung up thus far, and if the Ripper DID hide behind it, walking through the wicker gate would only have made him step right into the middle of the passage. If Diemschitz had entered the club, why not just walk around the gate and leave?
Of course, we have also the problem of why the Ripper would have chosen to hide behind the gate furthest away from the body of Stride. And if he had gone for the right hand gate, then there would not have been any wicker gate in it.
I donīt see the Ripper hiding in that yard OR behind one of those gates. Then again, I donīt see him there at all at any point, as you know. I think that Strideīs killer was BS man, and that he had left the yard before Diemschitz entered it.

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm a simple man, Fish. Diemschutz knew his pony better than us and he felt the pony shied due to the body, so I see no reason not to accept that as the likely reason. Could the Ripper have been behind the gate? Sure, but then why would the pony have shied from him and NOT the body, which was out in the open? Incidentally, if the Ripper were, in fact, hiding behind the gate, he could have escaped undetected by the Diemster simply by opening the wicker gate and walking through it once Diemschutz had moved on down the yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Well, then you should have written that Diemschitz had a pony and not a BIG horse. Such things could save you many a remark from clever people like me

Besides, knowledgeable as I am in equestrian matters, I can tell you that there are Shetlanders, A-ponies, B-ponies, C-ponies and D-ponies, all differing a whole lot in size, and the latter one often being mistaken for a "big" horse.

All that aside, Iīm glad to finally be joined by somebody who holds my own belief - that Diemschitzīpony would in all probability have been scared by the combination of the bloodscent and the dark figure lying on the ground. When I first stated this, I could not imagine that it would make me the target for a dozen upset posts, but there you are ...

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I know a pony is a horse, but it's a SMALL horse, and most the talk on this thread has people thinking of BIG horses, so I thought the distinction should be made.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott