Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Sam Flynn]

Krantz was also down the far end of the yard...

...so she could've had her Phil, as well!

[Monty]

Krantz was also down the far end of the yard.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Cant see her retreating into a darkened yard Sam. Into a dead end?

...before she got to the dead end, there was light, noise, people, and a chance of safety. In the other direction? A boozy bully who'd just roughed her up.

[Observer]

Cant see her retreating into a darkened yard Sam. Into a dead end?

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

People tend to move about when they're scuffling - they don't remain rooted to the same spot. Liz might have started back into the yard, only for him to catch up with her and wrestle - fatefully - with her again.

[joelhall]

anyone ever thought from the risks taken this killer was never worried about getting caught?

[Observer]

Hi Mike

. I think she just misread BSM, and smarted off to him. She turned away, he got hold of the scarf...pull, twist, slit, drop.

Pulled her accross the pavement up into the yard and then dropped her, and slit her throat?

If this was a domestic/rage killing, I can't understand why BSM didn't just slit her throat in the street?

all the best

Observer

Mike,

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I am from Minnesota where everyone carries pistols, and this stuff doesn't happen so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Cheers,

Mike

Hey Michael,

On your present location, ever since I read your thoughts on weighing meat in a Kelly thread, Ive been sorta glad youre in Korea.

On the above though, what is required in the case of Kate Eddowes is certainly a different breed of killer than the norm, much more like the "Ripper" killer,...but in Liz's case, we only need what amounts to a domestic with a drunk to see the conclusion we do. We also have a preceeding incident with an agressive man...like immediately preceeding. And the breath fresheners actually help support that idea, because Liz would only be that off guard if she was in a situation she thought she knew well and could handle. I think she just misread BSM, and smarted off to him. She turned away, he got hold of the scarf...pull, twist, slit, drop.

Gary, if you look at the knowns we are given...who was there, what had happened, the yard, the physical evidence, the exit venue, youll see that not only would The Ripper have a time of it getting into the yard and out of it unseen, when factoring times, Mrs Mortimer and Diemshutz, but the evidence that we have doesnt indicate an interruption, nor the temperment of the man who for example kills later in Mitre Square.

All the best.

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

Minnesota is a lot safer with me in Korea, and I didn't own a gun. I have 7 swords though and only two were for sport fencing

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Indeed they are, Michael - but the odds of the "Two Separate Events", though long, are not impossibly so. Your point about the preponderance of guns and the infrequency of "Double Events" in Minnesota is well made, although I presume Minnesota isn't quite as rough as large parts of London's East End were in the 1880s.

[joelhall]

If this man is indeed an accomplice in some way, the act of lighting a pipe upon noticing Scwartz's approach sounds like the actions of someone attempting to appear casually innocuous. As a detail it seems somehow in keeping with the rest of the scenario. I was also greatly impressed by Fisherman's comment earlier about Schwartz giving himself the role of a coward in his version of events. To me this speaks towards honesty in his account.

Gary

sounds to me that lighting a pipe was to signal to the other man (like in sherlock holmes novels).

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I am from Minnesota where everyone carries pistols, and this stuff doesn't happen so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Cheers,

Mike

[joelhall]

Couple of issues there Joel....she had breath fresheners in her hand, while tussling? Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire. And thirdly, if he legged it...he would have legged it out through the gates, in clear view of Diemshutz approaching. And she made no scream that was heard by anyone...which fighting with the man might have aroused.

Best regards.

then it would appear there was no real reason for it.

but yes if you hold something in your hand and youre struggling most people would instinctively make a fist, rather than open their hand. also regarding signs of a struggle - if she had her throat cut then she wouldnt appear to have struggled.

no i suspect the attacker grabbed her from behind in the usual manner (that being hand over mouth, she tried to fight back making fists, this being a surprise for the attacker. if i were to try & punch someone i doubt it would affect my clothing very much. 'signs' of a struggle would be hard to notice, given that its obvious the victim would have been grabbed & tried to get free - only instinct.

i fail to see how if her throat is cut & the lifes flowing out of her she wouldnt have dropped her breath sweets, however. if she was strangled, she would have suddenly relaxed & dropped them. if a knife were slashing her throat, her instinct would bring her hand up to it. this for me is one of the most puzzling parts of her murder. she was grabbed & had her throat cut, yet apparently did nothing to try to protect herself, preferring instead to hold onto some breath fresheners.

as for being seen, maybe after the first sighting of them they thought enough was enough, finished off the victim who could id them & scarpered. theres no reason a bloke leading a horse at night when sounds echo & travel better, would be staring ahead at the gate.

they would have heard him before he heard them.

[Scotland Yard]

Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire.
Best regards.

Its not known exactly how the killer restrained her, but restrain her he must have done. She's not just going to be so compliant as to lie down and allow her throat to be cut. There being no evidence of a struggle could indicate both how much he took her by surprise and how successfully he managed to contain whatever physical response she did put up.

On another note, I've always found it intriguing that Schwartz claimed he saw the BS man stop and try to pull the woman away from the gates when he came across her standing 'in' them. According to his testimony, he tried to pull her into the street and only threw her down on the foot path when, presumably, she resisted.

If the man 'stopped' before grabbing the woman, had he been walking towards her along Berner Street and only just seen her? And what could be his motivation for pulling her away from the yard? Was he a member of the club trying to protect the establishment's reputation? Did he intend to kill her but preferred to do it elsewhere? Was he Michael Kidney, unhappy to find her on the game?

Or perhaps he simply wanted her away from the yard for fear of what she might see there?

I have to say that, for me, one of things that adds a certain verisimiltude to Schwartz's testimony is the man who he sees lighting up his pipe.

If this man is indeed an accomplice in some way, the act of lighting a pipe upon noticing Scwartz's approach sounds like the actions of someone attempting to appear casually innocuous. As a detail it seems somehow in keeping with the rest of the scenario. I was also greatly impressed by Fisherman's comment earlier about Schwartz giving himself the role of a coward in his version of events. To me this speaks towards honesty in his account.

Gary

Not so sure about that, Mike. Longish odds, perhaps, but not super coincidental by any means. (I'll not quibble about "not so far in time/place", "two unfortunates" or "killed in the same way with a cut throat", even though I might want to - that way madness lies )

Hi Gareth, nice to see you. I wonder if the question Mike raises is related to the erroneous contention that few men would be carrying around knives on their person, capable of making Ripper like cuts. I think when considering the time of day, location, general disposition and employment opportunities for local men, my bet is lots carried knives. The robbers, the butchers on the way to work, the thugs, the people wanting to be ready in case something happened. Tough part of town in the wee hours.

All the best Sam.