Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

Mike,

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I am from Minnesota where everyone carries pistols, and this stuff doesn't happen so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Cheers,

Mike

Hey Michael,

On your present location, ever since I read your thoughts on weighing meat in a Kelly thread, Ive been sorta glad youre in Korea.

On the above though, what is required in the case of Kate Eddowes is certainly a different breed of killer than the norm, much more like the "Ripper" killer,...but in Liz's case, we only need what amounts to a domestic with a drunk to see the conclusion we do. We also have a preceeding incident with an agressive man...like immediately preceeding. And the breath fresheners actually help support that idea, because Liz would only be that off guard if she was in a situation she thought she knew well and could handle. I think she just misread BSM, and smarted off to him. She turned away, he got hold of the scarf...pull, twist, slit, drop.

Gary, if you look at the knowns we are given...who was there, what had happened, the yard, the physical evidence, the exit venue, youll see that not only would The Ripper have a time of it getting into the yard and out of it unseen, when factoring times, Mrs Mortimer and Diemshutz, but the evidence that we have doesnt indicate an interruption, nor the temperment of the man who for example kills later in Mitre Square.

All the best.

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

Minnesota is a lot safer with me in Korea, and I didn't own a gun. I have 7 swords though and only two were for sport fencing

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Indeed they are, Michael - but the odds of the "Two Separate Events", though long, are not impossibly so. Your point about the preponderance of guns and the infrequency of "Double Events" in Minnesota is well made, although I presume Minnesota isn't quite as rough as large parts of London's East End were in the 1880s.

[joelhall]

If this man is indeed an accomplice in some way, the act of lighting a pipe upon noticing Scwartz's approach sounds like the actions of someone attempting to appear casually innocuous. As a detail it seems somehow in keeping with the rest of the scenario. I was also greatly impressed by Fisherman's comment earlier about Schwartz giving himself the role of a coward in his version of events. To me this speaks towards honesty in his account.

Gary

sounds to me that lighting a pipe was to signal to the other man (like in sherlock holmes novels).

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

No, I was referring to the odds of two such murders happening so close together. I am from Minnesota where everyone carries pistols, and this stuff doesn't happen so close together. I just think the odds are against it, is all.

Cheers,

Mike

[joelhall]

Couple of issues there Joel....she had breath fresheners in her hand, while tussling? Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire. And thirdly, if he legged it...he would have legged it out through the gates, in clear view of Diemshutz approaching. And she made no scream that was heard by anyone...which fighting with the man might have aroused.

Best regards.

then it would appear there was no real reason for it.

but yes if you hold something in your hand and youre struggling most people would instinctively make a fist, rather than open their hand. also regarding signs of a struggle - if she had her throat cut then she wouldnt appear to have struggled.

no i suspect the attacker grabbed her from behind in the usual manner (that being hand over mouth, she tried to fight back making fists, this being a surprise for the attacker. if i were to try & punch someone i doubt it would affect my clothing very much. 'signs' of a struggle would be hard to notice, given that its obvious the victim would have been grabbed & tried to get free - only instinct.

i fail to see how if her throat is cut & the lifes flowing out of her she wouldnt have dropped her breath sweets, however. if she was strangled, she would have suddenly relaxed & dropped them. if a knife were slashing her throat, her instinct would bring her hand up to it. this for me is one of the most puzzling parts of her murder. she was grabbed & had her throat cut, yet apparently did nothing to try to protect herself, preferring instead to hold onto some breath fresheners.

as for being seen, maybe after the first sighting of them they thought enough was enough, finished off the victim who could id them & scarpered. theres no reason a bloke leading a horse at night when sounds echo & travel better, would be staring ahead at the gate.

they would have heard him before he heard them.

[Scotland Yard]

Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire.
Best regards.

Its not known exactly how the killer restrained her, but restrain her he must have done. She's not just going to be so compliant as to lie down and allow her throat to be cut. There being no evidence of a struggle could indicate both how much he took her by surprise and how successfully he managed to contain whatever physical response she did put up.

On another note, I've always found it intriguing that Schwartz claimed he saw the BS man stop and try to pull the woman away from the gates when he came across her standing 'in' them. According to his testimony, he tried to pull her into the street and only threw her down on the foot path when, presumably, she resisted.

If the man 'stopped' before grabbing the woman, had he been walking towards her along Berner Street and only just seen her? And what could be his motivation for pulling her away from the yard? Was he a member of the club trying to protect the establishment's reputation? Did he intend to kill her but preferred to do it elsewhere? Was he Michael Kidney, unhappy to find her on the game?

Or perhaps he simply wanted her away from the yard for fear of what she might see there?

I have to say that, for me, one of things that adds a certain verisimiltude to Schwartz's testimony is the man who he sees lighting up his pipe.

If this man is indeed an accomplice in some way, the act of lighting a pipe upon noticing Scwartz's approach sounds like the actions of someone attempting to appear casually innocuous. As a detail it seems somehow in keeping with the rest of the scenario. I was also greatly impressed by Fisherman's comment earlier about Schwartz giving himself the role of a coward in his version of events. To me this speaks towards honesty in his account.

Gary

Not so sure about that, Mike. Longish odds, perhaps, but not super coincidental by any means. (I'll not quibble about "not so far in time/place", "two unfortunates" or "killed in the same way with a cut throat", even though I might want to - that way madness lies )

Hi Gareth, nice to see you. I wonder if the question Mike raises is related to the erroneous contention that few men would be carrying around knives on their person, capable of making Ripper like cuts. I think when considering the time of day, location, general disposition and employment opportunities for local men, my bet is lots carried knives. The robbers, the butchers on the way to work, the thugs, the people wanting to be ready in case something happened. Tough part of town in the wee hours.

All the best Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Of course, it would be super coincidental if, on the same night, not so far apart in time and place, two unfortunates were killed in the same way, with a cut throat...

Not so sure about that, Mike. Longish odds, perhaps, but not super coincidental by any means. (I'll not quibble about "not so far in time/place", "two unfortunates" or "killed in the same way with a cut throat", even though I might want to - that way madness lies )

personally if this was part of the same series (im now starting to believe it could have been), then i think the difference was stride put up a better fight than any other victim. it went wrong, the killers had been interrupted once & heard the horse coming, so they legged it as this one was too much hassle, both in choice of victim & location.

joel

Couple of issues there Joel....she had breath fresheners in her hand, while tussling? Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire. And thirdly, if he legged it...he would have legged it out through the gates, in clear view of Diemshutz approaching. And she made no scream that was heard by anyone...which fighting with the man might have aroused.

Best regards.

[The Good Michael]

This could have been an unplanned Ripper kill, meaning that wasn't his intention with her, but it happened for whatever reason. Because the circumstances are somewhat anomalous, doesn't make the Ripper NOT the killer (That was like the GSG!). Of course, it would be super coincidental if, on the same night, not so far apart in time and place, two unfortunates were killed in the same way, with a cut throat. Yet, his NOT wanting to kill but doing so, may be even more hard to swallow.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Woud have taken only seconds to move the body,The blood would have still been flowing...

...and leaving a trail across the yard, from the gate to where the body was eventually dropped. Such a trail would have shown whether the throat had been cut at the gate and the body moved from the gate to further inside the passage, but no such trail was reported.

[joelhall]

personally if this was part of the same series (im now starting to believe it could have been), then i think the difference was stride put up a better fight than any other victim. it went wrong, the killers had been interrupted once & heard the horse coming, so they legged it as this one was too much hassle, both in choice of victim & location.

joel

Hello all,... nice to see you by the way Harry,

There are some salient points that are being discarded to make some assumptions here......one, that Liz was in fact lying down when she was cut, when in fact the senior medical man who attended her while in that yard said she "may have been cut while falling". Find another Ripper murder where that is mentioned. Secondly, Liz's scarf was tightly twisted...indicating she was grabbed by it from the rear. As in most cases, the attack was most probably from behind the victim...as Sam pointed out, allows him to control the noise with one hand and also expose the throat. That was also a favoured choice of position for the unfortunates.

Another salient point is that there is no physical evidence to suggest he was interrupted, that is pure speculation, and the result of a Ripper bias when looking at this murder.

If the person that killed Liz was still with her when Diemshutz is arriving, the killer has had a warning for perhaps 5-10 seconds or more by the sounds...and that then means he cut her just as that sound approached. Another unsubstantiated bit of "evidence". A range of 10 minutes was established by the senior medical man onsite for the time of that single cut, and it shows that she could have been cut within a minute of Pipeman and Schwartz's departure. Interrupted then... 13-14 minutes later?

You have a woman that is not proven to have been soliciting, killed with a single throat cut perhaps a minute or two after being witnessed in an altercation with a drunk man who tried to pull her into the street, causing her to fall. That man then taunts the witness. Causing the witness and another bystander to leave the scene,...leaving that man alone with the soon to be murder victim... in the company of the drunk man who asaulted her. She is found dead by that single cut, (severing only one of two major ateries fully), lying on her left side , her face inches from the Club Wall, slightly behind the main gates when partially open. One comment made about her demeanor is that she "looked as if lain gently down".

Jack the Ripper cut the throats of his victims either while standing, or lying down....not ever "possibly while falling", Jack the Ripper always manipulates the body of the deceased to allow himself access to the pelvic and abdominal area of the victim...flat onto their backs, with legs splayed...and most importantly, Jack kills the women to enable the post mortem mutilations, which are undoubtably in some way, the primary objectives. Jack the Ripper removes intestines and cuts organs and skin flaps free. Jack the Ripper, or some unknown man, is not the last man seen with Liz Stride, an identified man....seen by a witness, is. And one of the two men in the area at the moment Schwartz sees the altercation is found by a description, and questioned by Police. We dont know whether it was Pipeman or BSM, but we do know they spoke with one of those men, and the description of Pipeman is vague.

I believe the truly telling feature is this though....if Lawende saw Kate Eddowes, then her killer did all that damage to her within 4-6 minutes likely...including ripping and cutting the apron. It is within the bounds of medical data and circumstantial evidence that the killer may have had even longer alone with Liz. If he even stayed after killing her of course. Can a case be made for Jack that includes a single cut and perhaps more than 4-6 minutes alone with a victim in a deserted yard? Nope.

The only suspect in this case that is in evidence is BSM,....and Ive yet to hear a valid reason why he would suddenly leave when he finds himself alone with the woman he grabbed and tried to pull away.

Best regards all.

[harry]

Sam,
Woud have taken only seconds to move the body,The blood would have still been flowing.
We tolerate the condition and degree of darkness because witnesses there described it so,not because I say so.
Regards.