Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Fisherman]

Nobody, Tom, and I mean nobody, argues against "Lonesome Dove"!

Then again, it was not the only source I offered. And the passage from it went well to show what I was speaking about.

Why do I call him Diemschitz? You mean you have no idea, Tom? Then I´ll try Diemshütz the next time over!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Here you go, Mike; horses and the smell of blood:

From the book ”Lonesome Dove” by Larry McMurtree:

It's hard to argue against these kind of sources.

Fish, why are you calling him Diemschitz?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

"And you can believe in the blood shying all you want. It's cool."

Yep. AND correct, mind you!

The best!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

I can vaguely see how you could have read that, however, my intention was that it was being forced into the body and its natural disinclination to trod on something in its path caused it to shy. No way did it tread on Stride. At least we are agreed on that.

And you can believe in the blood shying all you want. It's cool.

Mike

[Fisherman]

C´mon Mike!

It would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that was what happened.

So it was forced into it, and that is why it tread on it.

Surely, you must see that this is how most people would read it? Not that it matters, since it is only what you believed happened that counts. But I think you may extend me the admittance that it was there to be read?

And I won´t yield an inch here, I´m afraid. Horses shy away from blood. And the way Stride was lying, it is much more credible that the pony did not steer against the body. If it happened, then Diemschitz must have taken rather a sharp turn to the right after passing through the gates. And the body was lying not very far from them gates.

The best, Mike!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

and I am of the opinion that neither would shy away from the smell of a recently deceased person. They would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that is what I think was happening.”

Ah yes, it was being FORCED into it. That is why it shied, and that is why it didn't come into contact with it.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

The thing is, horses that are untrained or barely trained can be spooked by anything they see as being different. A shirt on a tree, or a garbage bag, or even a stick on the ground can scare a horse if it isn't trained. My contention is that a city pony would be used to all kinds of things, but if the passage was a place where it and the cart often ended up, I don't think blood would scare it, but I think an anomoly in its path would. None of the horses I had were afraid of odd smells, even skunks (though I was), but something odd in their regular path could make them shy away, sometimes.
My horses had to grow up around dogs, cats, and many, many neighborhood kids. Generally speaking, and this is a fact, smell doesn't affect horses. Some, yes, but not generally. The pony would have smelled the body on the ground, however, and known where it was, but it wouldn't have been the blood that scared it, just the knowledge that there was something there.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:

"You are wrong on this one my friend."

Ehrm - no, Mike. In fact, there were lots of other clips to be found out on the net, all showing that horses, much like numerous other animals like deer and rabbits and so on, are frightened by the smell of blood. Which makes me right, not wrong.

And "city ponies", Mike? Are they a special breed with blood-unsensitive nostrils? Do we, to begin with, know that Diemschitz´s pony was a pony that had walked the streets of the East End for a lengthy time?

Much as I think that a horse may perhaps learn to get along in environment where there is a smell of blood present (which explains the cavalry horses; horses can be trained into passing through flames on a circus, but that does not mean that they will make a dash for any flame in sight), I would say that when it stumbles on that smell in a place where it has not been present before, it is another thing altogether.

And no, I don´t think that the body of Stride was slightly in the pony´s path.

And yes, you did actually suggest that the horse came in contact with the body of Stride, as you wrote: ”I grew up with horses and ponies and I am of the opinion that neither would shy away from the smell of a recently deceased person. They would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that is what I think was happening.”

All the best, Mike!

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

A horse slaughterhouse is a far cry from a passageway. If a horse can't stand the smell of blood, why were there so many cavalry units in early wars?

Because their horses were trained, perhaps, not to be so spooked by blood? I'm not so sure about Diemschutz's nag... but enough about his wife already.

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

A horse slaughterhouse is a far cry from a passageway. If a horse can't stand the smell of blood, why were there so many cavalry units in early wars? I should think that after the first several brigades were unhorsed because the horses smelled blood, they would have been reduced to palanquins and rickshaws. You are wrong on this one my friend. A city pony wouldn't care about blood. It would have experienced human excrement, vomit, violent fights, garbage, animal corpses, decayed meat, and it wouldn't have batted an eye. A killer lurking in its path may be enough to startle it, and so may a supine body in its path. Oh, and I never said the pony came in contact with the body. I said that the body may have been slightly in its path.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Here you go, Mike; horses and the smell of blood:

From the book ”Lonesome Dove” by Larry McMurtree:

”A buffalo wallow was the only thing he could find to use on the flat plain. After that, he cut his horses´throat and hoped the smell of blood would make the other horses shy away.”

From ”The American horse slaughter prevention act”:

”Subjected to overcrowding, deafening sounds and the smell of blood, the horses become more and more desperate, exhibiting fear typical of “flight” behavior—pacing in prance-like movements with their ears pinned back against their heads and eyes wide open.”

From a newspaper article on the Kentucky Derby:

”But horses tend to toss their heads a lot, especially when unnerved by the smell of blood...”

Think I got that one right, I´m afraid!

The best, Mike!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Mike!

Your assertion "I am of the opinion that neither would shy away from the smell of a recently deceased person" makes me wonder how much experience you have had from situations involving horses and recently deceased people...? Sounds lika an ugly business.

I will try and see if I can find any more information on the topic, but I am inclined to believe that the blood, together with the sight of the woman on the ground, may well have made the horse shy away.

On your suggestion that the horse may have stepped on Stride, it is of course not impossible. I don´t think, however, that it is the most credible thing to suggest. If you take a look at the dissertation "Blackwells testimony", you will find a sketch of how Stride was lying in the passageway into the yard, and that shows that there was ample space for a small carriage to pass her. Couple this with the fact that the horse was not by any means as broad as the carriage, instead much more likely to walk down the middle of the way, and top it off with the knowledge that Diemschitz arrived in Berner Street from Commercial Road, and thus when he steered into Dutfields yard, he did so by means of a right hand turn, meaning that it would be more credible that he came closer to the left-hand wall than the right-hand one...
...and you will see why I think that the pony never came in contact with the body.

The best, Mike!

Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

I am no animal behaviorist, though I teach children. Yet, I grew up with horses and ponies and I am of the opinion that neither would shy away from the smell of a recently deceased person. They would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that is what I think was happening. Though Stride was to the right, the passage was narrow enough that the horse knew that it would likely step on a person that it smelled. If the killer was lurking there, it would have had the same effect. Again, I don't believe it would be the smell, but the presence of a human obstacle that would cause it to stop.... assuming Diemschutz didn't lie, of course.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:

"My point of course,taking all other information into account,is that Diemschultz's arrival coincided with the killing taking place,that the opportunity to mutilate was lost,it was after all a ripper killing,and it was the killer who spooked the pony."

Yes, Harry, I know. My point is that Diemschitz arrival happened some time after the killing, that the opportunity to mutilate was not affected by it, that it was not a Ripper killing at all and that it is much more credible that the horse was spooked by the sight of Stride in combination with the smell of blood.
After all, Harry, if Jack was still in place and had abandoned the idea of mutilating since he heard Diemschitz approaching, would you not say that it stands to reason that if this was the case, he would not have hung around, knife in hand, standing in the middle of the driveway, would he? I think we may agree that if you are right, the Ripper was hiding, waiting for a chance to flee. And if this is the case, what makes you think that the horse would have shied away from a killer it could not see, instead of from the corpse of a woman that it COULD see, and that reeked of blood?
Moreover, Diemschitz stated that his horse shied to the left. And Stride was lying to the right of it, alongside a wall that was several yards long, with no hiding place.
Can we please agree that the horse shied away from the body?

The best,

Fisherman

[harry]

Thanks Claire and Fisherman,
We can say then that generally horses of any type are unpredictable.That the pony of Diemschultz may or may not have been disturbed by the body lying there in the yard,but by some other cause,such as another person in the yard.The killer perhaps?
One thing to take into account,as we must with humans,is the physical condition of the pony.A report I read said Diemschultz had visited a market some ten miles away.Twenty miles there and back,and the pony pulling a cart.Must have been a tired animal at one o'clock that morning.Perhaps that affected his temperment.
My point of course,taking all other information into account,is that Diemschultz's arrival coincided with the killing taking place,that the opportunity to mutilate was lost,it was after all a ripper killing,and it was the killer who spooked the pony.
Regards.