Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Howard Brown]

Good points,Good Michael.

To take it a step further, Orthodox Jews ( Hasidics) in some circumstances considered Zionist Jews the twin brothers of National Socialists. Zionism was considered the mental or spiritual equivalent of what the "Nazis" did physically to people who happened to be Jewish. I recommend watching the (dreadful but edumacational...) film, The Chosen for a demonstration of this internecine squabbling between factions of Jewry.

I'll bring over a link I found from a Rabbi on the lefty Jews in an 1890 newspaper article in a minute to illustrate that point.

Here youse go ....

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=50278#post50278

[The Good Michael]

People who live in trailer parks sometimes call each other trailer trash.

Poor white people call others white trash.

Some African Americans call others N***ers, and not in a nice way.

Radical, atheistic Jews would certainly be antisemitic at times, and the use of Lipski, if as frequently tossed around as some contemporaries said, would most assuredly be picked up by those same Jews and tossed in the faces of others.

Cheers,

Mike

[harry]

Tom,
Minutia or not,if one wants to get a proper perspective of what may show the truth of a happening,then there should be no limit set.I would be happy to accept that Diemscultz felt the pony shied because of the body beig there,if he indeed made a statement to that effect,and that statement has been recorded.Not a lot to ask.I myself have not seen or read of any such statement.

Fisherman,
Perhaps the wind did swirl around in the yard.All the more reason that any smell present would in that narrow space have been dispersed widely around the area,including the yard entrance.

[Howard Brown]

"The clubmen despised Judism as a faith and didn't care at all for its practitioners. They are notorious for this. They held feasts with a roasted pig as the centerpiece on the holidays when Jews were fasting. Eagle had just THAT EVENING given a speech on why Jews should be socialist. It would not be at all surprising to see him use an anti-Semitic epithet."- Wescott

Yes it would, Tom. It is one thing to strive towards a more secular society, but quite another to start calling fellow jews "jewish pig", "long-schnaaz" or - "Lipsky". It falters logically, and I must disagree with you totally on the matter.--Fisherman

Uh,Fisherman...you're wrong.

Selbsthass ( self hate in German) is a condition which Jews have and its been manifested throughout history in numerous circumstances,particularly in cases of former religious ( still ethnically ) Judenvolk converting to Christendom. Some of the damaging "blood libel" cases were inspired by "former" Jews to the new religion. Wescott's right.

I also know of less belligerent instances of former Jews castigating their fellow Jew for their Jewishness.

[Tom_Wescott]

This is another thing altogether! I most sincerely agree that all avenues of research should be trodden. Itīs just that I prefer leaving it to others, since I sit tight with a scenario

Then what joy can you get out of these discussions from those of us who haven't bet all their money on one horse? Do you just enjoy slowing down or stifling discussion with your one-trick pony (puns intended)? Incidentally, your scenario boosts Schwartz up to the level of perfect witness and disposes of a truckload of other evidence...some just as viable, some moreso. But I digress.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

You overlook that these men were neighbors with Israel Lipski when he murdered the girl. It's not weird at all for them to have adopted the name for their own purposes. Fact is this, BS Man stopped at the gates of the club, talked to Stride, pulled her AWAY from the gates and she ended up on the ground. This is at a time other clubmembers have Eagle entering the club through the passage. If BS man was Eagle he was not her killer, just a clubman annoyed at prostitutes in his club's yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:
"The clubmen dispised Judism as a faith and didn't care at all for its practitioners. They are notorious for this. They held feasts with a roasted pig as the centerpiece on the holidays when Jews were fasting. Eagle had just THAT EVENING given a speech on why Jews should be socialist. It would not be at all surprising to see him use an anti-Semitic epithet."

Yes it would, Tom. It is one thing to strive towards a more secular society, but quite another to start calling fellow jews "jewish pig", "long-schnaaz" or - "Lipsky". It falters logically, and I must disagree with you totally on the matter.

"That's fine if BS Man was her killer, but if the evidence suggests other possibilities (such as Pipeman or OJ Simpson), then we should see where those possibilities lead. It's too easy just to go with the simple conclusion that it was BS Man simply because he pulled her around a tad."

This is another thing altogether! I most sincerely agree that all avenues of research should be trodden. Itīs just that I prefer leaving it to others, since I sit tight with a scenario that I think covers the whole thing without a weak spot around. I donīt have to cut four inches of from my suspect, und so weiter and so forth. I sincerely believe that as far as the evidence goes, there is no other scenario that can be put forward that covers the different details with such ease. Sooner or later, those who try have a tendency of running into trouble, logically.
That, as I say, does not mean that I wonīt listen. I do.

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesnīt seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

The clubmen dispised Judism as a faith and didn't care at all for its practitioners. They are notorious for this. They held feasts with a roasted pig as the centerpiece on the holidays when Jews were fasting. Eagle had just THAT EVENING given a speech on why Jews should be socialist. It would not be at all surprising to see him use an anti-Semitic epithet.

Fisherman,

That's fine if BS Man was her killer, but if the evidence suggests other possibilities (such as Pipeman or OJ Simpson), then we should see where those possibilities lead. It's too easy just to go with the simple conclusion that it was BS Man simply because he pulled her around a tad.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Hi c.d!

It has, of course, been suggested that if the man who called out "Lipski" was a jew, he may have been sly enough to conceal that fact by using an insult that jews normally would not resort to.
But then again, what has NOT been suggested in this case...

All the best, c.d!

[c.d.]

I agree, Fisherman. That's why I said you had made a good point. I was just trying to come up with a reason for why he might have done what he did. You know me, I like to ask questions. (can't find the damn smiley face but insert here).

c.d.

[Fisherman]

It was, c.d. What I am questioning is whether a jew would use a jewish name to hurl insults and/or threats towards another jew.
Actually, Lipski split the people of Whitechapel in two parts, for and against, and to be called a regular Lipski would have been a compliment to some. But I think we can rule out compliments in this case.
So what do you think; would a jew like Eagle use a jewish name to insult or threat? My guess is that the name Lipski was never used in that club as something derogatory.

The best, c.d!
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Mike writes:

"I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. "

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesnīt seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

That's a good point but wasn't "Lipski" also used as a verb as in "I'll come over there and "Lipski" your ass."?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"James Brown enters the scene and sees them. This is the last time Stride is seen alive."

We donīt know that Brown had the timing right, Tom. And he was not sure that it WAS Liz he saw. Moreover, Pipeman was a tallish fellow (5 ft 11, according to out Hungarian friend), and not described as stout by Schwartz, whereas Brown has his man down as stout and 5 ft 7. And of course, Pipeman tallies poorly with Lawendes man too.
Also, I find a scenario where Stride leaves the entrance to the yard, snuggles up against a wall with Browns man, only to tell him: "No, not tonight. Some other night", after which she makes for the yard once more, accompanied by the man she has just rejected. I would think that if this was done with force, she would have yelled out at the top of her voice.

It. s like I say, Tom: Once you move with BS man as her killer, you donīt have to take four inches of peoples lenghtīs , you donīt need to explain how the transport from the corner to the yard was performed etcetera. It all becomes quite, quite easy.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:

"I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. "

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesnīt seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Ok, thanks, Tom. Do we know what time the meeting officially ended or what time most people started leaving the club?

c.d.