Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Jon Guy]

She was not mutilated - strange.
She was found on her side - strange.
She was cut in a less deep manner - strange.
She seemed to be enjoying a love affair close in time to the murder - strange.
She was killed south of Whitechapel High Street - strange.
She was attacked a very short time before the murder - strange.

These things were, are and remain strange, Jon, long as we have no safe answers to why the came about. That is why Stride is often thought killed by somebody else than the Ripper, right?

The very fact that people fail to realize that these things are strange is, well...Strange!
That is if - IF - these people are not ... No, let´s forget it, shall we?

The best,
Fisherman

Hello Fisherman

I would have listed the lack of evidence of strangulation, and the Doctor`s remarks as to the size of the knife used as stronger pointers to a different killer.

But, if I may have a stab at your strange list:

Not mutilated - as previously noted, there was a witness to the assault.
On her side - no intent to mutilation (see above) so she was not turned on to her back
Severity of throat cut - no intent of mutilation (see above) But still a deep and jagged cut that partially severed her carotid and cut through her windpipe.
Love affair - the man in the pub was all over her. Best and Gardener was astonished at the way he was going at her.
South of the High St - Eddowes killed in the City
Time of attack - only Diemschutz was aware of the correct time as he rounded the corner into Berner St.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;36729]Well, c.d., who says I overlook them? Here goes:

There were no signs of a struggle - strange

All depends on how fast and surprising the attack was - and I fail to see that the Ripper was the only one capable of fast attacks.

Liz only had one cut to her body and that was to her throat - strange

Do you think so? Then check out just how common a murder weapon the knife was, and just how common the method of cutting throats was, beginning with the THREE murder victims of that night.

Liz manages to hold on to the bag of cachous and the bag doesn't break - strange

All depends on how fast and surprising the attack was - and I fail to see... wait a minute, you´ve had that answer already, haven´t you...?


The BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man - strange

If he was the Ripper, who admittedly put some effort into arriving and disappearing unnoticed - yes, then it is very strange indeed. Thanks for pointing it out!

All the best, c.d.!

Hi Fisherman,

I suppose that it is possible that the BS man could have the lightning like reflexes of a skilled Kung Fu master as opposed to a those of a drunken street thug but it appears as though Liz was caught off guard. That is a point that I really have trouble with. Are we to believe that Liz did not realize that she was in any danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man? Liz was a veteran of the streets and for all she knew she might have believed that she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper. Yet there are no signs of a struggle. Now that I find quite strange.

c.d.

[Simon Owen]

Simon Owen writes:
"I'm surprised that people believe that Stride is not a victim : I think the most likely scenario is that Liz refused to co-operate with her killer or fought back , thus the Ripper had to kill her quickly and flee unsatisfied."

Right, Simon, ask yourself this: Even if she DID fight back or refused to co-operate (and there are NO signs of any struggle, just as there was nothing heard), what happened as he cut her neck and she fell to the ground? Did she fight back from a lying position? I wouldn´t think so.

But still, that killer did not mutilate her. Strange, is it not?

All the best, Simon!

Fisherman

Ah , I can answer this one ! My suggestion is that Duffield's Yard was not the place where Jack intended to murder Liz. It may have been dark and empty , but there was a noisy club meeting going on nearby and there was every chance of discovery there.

I think the Ripper was trying to persuade Liz to take him somewhere for a supposed ' sexual assignation ' ( where she would be killed ) , but she refused - hence her comment about ' some other night '. Thus I think the Ripper tried to force her to come with him somewhere , and she struggled or refused , leading to the scene witnessed by Israel Schwartz. After Schwartz was chased off , the Ripper had decided to kill Liz so he dragged her into the nearby Duffield's yard and cut her throat. Either she struggled and Jack feared detection because of this , or Jack heard Diemschutz approaching , or Jack feared someone might step out of the club - he did not have the time or inclination to mutilate Liz's body.

I think this is the reason why there was a second murder that same night - Jack was frustrated and angry about being denied the opportunity and the pleasure of mutilating Liz's corpse , so he looked for a second victim. And he really ' went to town ' on Eddowes. Mitre Square , being in the jurisdiction of the City Police , was the perfect location for a second murder if the Metropolitan Police had gone on alert following the discovery of Liz's body : it was a large , dark empty location and the perfect place for a murder.

Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim explains so much about the events of that night that I can't conceive that she could be otherwise. I wonder if people see the Ripper as an infallible , almost supernaturally competent killer because he wasn't caught and so they discount the Stride murder because it doesn't fit in with that image. I believe the discrepancies with the other murders can be explained , and that this is the occasion when the Ripper messed up.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon,

Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim explains so much about the events of that night

Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Simon,Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?

Theres just too many to list!!

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

You write:
" if I may have a stab at your strange list"

...which makes me wonder if you left out the quotation marks on purpose??

My list is not strange. It is a list that points out the many deviations between Liz´demise and those of the other victims. The only strange thing with that is that so many poster prefer to look away from them.

The best,

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d. asks:
"Are we to believe that Liz did not realize that she was in any danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man?"

Yes, c.d, we are! In case you have not noticed, I have always supported the theory that B S man was an AQUAINTANCE of Stride´s, a man who may have been equipped with a moody character, but someone that Liz knew very well how "to play" - at least until Dutfield´s Yard.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Theres just too many to list!!

Don't be such a tease! If there are so many facts about that night which can be explained only if Stride was killed by the Ripper (apart from the somewhat circular assertion that she was a Ripper victim) surely you can share a few of them with us, Mitch?

[Fisherman]

Simon Wood writes:
"Elizabeth Stride being a Ripper victim explains so much about the events of that night that I can't conceive that she could be otherwise. I wonder if people see the Ripper as an infallible , almost supernaturally competent killer because he wasn't caught and so they discount the Stride murder because it doesn't fit in with that image. "

Simon, I have written a dissertation on the subject here on Casebook, for the very reason that I feel so certain that the Ripper never was in Dutfields Yard that I find it hard to cenceive that it could have been otherwise. In it, I write that as long as you need Jack on the stage, you are left with unsurmountable problems, but once you leave him out, that dissolves like a troll in sunlight.
Welcome to the world of mixed opinions, Simon!
Incidentally, if you feel like reading my dissertation, it is called "Piecing it togehter - a possible scenario of the death of Elizabeth Stride".
Moreover, I would like to point out to you that I set out as a firm believer in Liz being a Ripper victim too - how, oh how could it be otherwise? - but after having studied the case for more than twenty years, I have reached a different opinion. Does not make me right, of course - but goes to show that I have paid my learning fee a couple of times over...
Finally, I do not believe in any supernatural Ripper. I think he was a man who was often frightened, who suffered times when he felt inferior, and who recognized societys´ right to point him out as a monster - for whatever THAT is worth, Simon!

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Owen]

Hi Simon,Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?

It explains why there was a Double Event that night.

Its a fact that Catharine Eddowes' murder was carried out within the boundaries of the City of London not in the East End. Why did Jack strike there ? Why not in the East End ?

[Sam Flynn]

It explains why there was a Double Event that night.

Sorry, Simon, but that's rather a circular argument - it only works if you believe from the outset that Stride was killed by the Ripper.

Its a fact that Catharine Eddowes' murder was carried out within the boundaries of the City of London not in the East End.

It may as well not have been - Eddowes was killed within a handful of minutes' walking distance from the East End boundary.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Liz was a veteran of the streets and for all she knew she might have believed that she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper. Yet there are no signs of a struggle

But what "signs" would you be looking for? Surely when confronted with the spectacle of a dead woman with a slit throat and bruised shoulders, it needn't take a giant leap of faith to surmise that a "struggle" of some sort may have occured beforehand. It wasn't as if there was anything there that pointed away from there having been a struggle, and no, the cachous doesn't qualify on that score. If she was caught completely off guard, it would have greatly increased the likelihood of her dropping them in blind instinct, as opposed to clenching her fists preparatory to fending off an attacker.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

C.d. asks:
"Are we to believe that Liz did not realize that she was in any danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man?"

Yes, c.d, we are! In case you have not noticed, I have always supported the theory that B S man was an AQUAINTANCE of Stride´s, a man who may have been equipped with a moody character, but someone that Liz knew very well how "to play" - at least until Dutfield´s Yard.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Sorry brother, but you lost me completely here. Are we to assume that Liz took being thrown roughly to the ground as a sign of affection? Now she might not have expected a knife to the throat but is it not reasonable that she expected more rough treatment and therefore was on her guard?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi CD,



But what "signs" would you be looking for? Surely when confronted with the spectacle of a dead woman with a slit throat and bruised shoulders, it needn't take a giant leap of faith to surmise that a "struggle" of some sort may have occured beforehand. It wasn't as if there was anything there that pointed away from there having been a struggle, and no, the cachous doesn't qualify on that score. If she was caught completely off guard, it would have greatly increased the likelihood of her dropping them in blind instinct, as opposed to clenching her fists preparatory to fending off an attacker.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Not meaning to sound smart ass here but you can ask Fisherman the same question as he made the same statement if I am not mistaken. As for myself, if a struggle took place, I would expect to see more marks and more bruises on her arms and hands. I would also expect that her clothes would have been ripped or at least more disheveled.

I disagree completely about the cachous. If you are being grabbed and choked, it seems to me that the natural reaction is to push your attacker away. This is much more easily accomplished with the flat of the hand than with a closed fist. Also, if she was being choked with her scarf, it would seem that the natural reaction would be to try to insert your hand between the scarf and the neck. This requires having your hand in a claw like shape as opposed to a fist. That would make it very difficult to hold on the cachous not to mention preventing the bag from tearing.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

I would expect to see more marks and more bruises on her arms and hands. I would also expect that her clothes would have been ripped or at least more disheveled.

Nah, I wouldn't.

I think the slit throat, bruised shoulders and assorted dirt and blood are evidence enough that a struggle of some description may have occured before death. I wouldn't necessarily expect excessive bruising to the hands and arms since attackers rarely have occasion to target that area (and Schwartz never mentioned any injuries sustained in that region). Clothes? Well, they were likely to be pretty worse for wear anway, and it's not as if crumpled fabric remains "crumpled" for very long (unless her dress was made of tracing paper ).

I disagree completely about the cachous. If you are being grabbed and choked, it seems to me that the natural reaction is to push your attacker away

She probably did; push with one hand, thwack with the other. As for the "choking", that may well have occured once Stride was on the ground and powerless to fend off her attacker. Whatever, the presence of cachous is far more indicative of pre-tensed muscles (and thus an anticipated attack) than a completely surprise attack.

Regards,
Ben