What makes her such a likely candidate?

[caz]

Yes, Caz! She was in all probability feeling at ease when she took out her cachous.

So we´re agreed! Who would have thought it?

The best, Caz!
Fisherman

Whoopee! That's great Fisherman. I'm very happy that we agree on something.

Now if Perry Mason agreed with me about anything, I'd have a whole lot to worry about.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Maybe, Caz, it is better to settle for what small gifts we may receive along the way, without asking too much...?

And don´t let my agreement on this point trouble you too much - it is perhaps just a whim of destiny...

Keep well, Caz!

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

So when does Liz take out her cachous, and why is she still holding them when she is found, if BS doesn't give her any opportunity or reason to calm down and collect herself between causing her to fall and strong arming her against her will into the yard?

Hi Caz. I believe the Ripper would use robbery as a ruse to assure the woman's silence once he got her alone. He held them at knife point and assured them that if they cooperated and remained silent they wouldn't get hurt. Pretty common and effective ruse. The girls were told to empty their pockets. This, I believe, is why Chapman's belongings were at her feet - she was standing when they fell. If I'm right, this would also explain the thimble next to Eddowes' hand and the cachous in Stride's hand - they were emptying their pockets and the Ripper taking their money. He subsequently killed them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jamie Angus]

This is my first post on these forums but I have been reading with great interest some of the arguments about whether to include or exclude Liz Stride from the canonical Ripper victims. Out of interest, does anyone have any statistics available about the prevalence of this type of knife crime in the East End during that period. For example, excluding the canonical five Ripper victims for the moment (and Tabram!), exactly how many women were killed on the street in the East End by having their throat slashed between the years of, lets say, 1887-1889? Would anyone have that information to hand? I ask because it seems to me that the lower the number, then the less likely it is that Stride and Eddowes were killed by different men. That said, I understand that there was a heck of a lot of knife crime in London in 1888 so perhaps throat slashings were relatively common. Were they?

All the best!

Jamie

[perrymason]

Hello all,

You need not fear Caz, because after reading your comments the past few years there is no way we'd ever be on the same side of arguments with these cases.

Why she is holding cashous? It would seem that youve learned nothing about Liz Stride from her Biographical Data....shes been whoring for 25 years. As cd has pointed out, a night a whore didnt get roughed up a bit was more rare than the reverse, and all we have seen happen TO her is.......nothing. She falls as a result of a refusal to go or a hand or foot that slips. BSM is not a scary man at that moment. When he yells at the witnesses, and perhaps by taking Liz by the arm into the yard, he might seem like trouble, but how does she know how much trouble? Shes been there, done that, and is missing 4 or 5 teeth.

How many women daily are abused by men... when the women say things or do things that those men dont like? How many in 1888?
How often does alcohol factor into those scenarios?
How often is drug or alcohol impairment a factor in violent assaults?

Liz had risen from the ground, and while getting her bearings might have slipped her hand to her pocket for a freshener. BSM might not have liked being "made" to look like he was assaulting her in front of people, and may want either a private word, which means likely a threatening poke... or slap, or what he wanted her from in the first place if the yard is empty. She is a tough "broad" and cant afford to be intimidated by everyone on the streets, so she says "Bugger off ya ratbag" turns her back, and too much booze, too little sense, and too much anger turns BSM into a killer.

Please note: Killer and post mortem mutilator are not synonyms.

Cheers.

[Jamie Angus]

Hello all,



How many women daily are abused by men... when the women say things or do things that those men dont like? How many in 1888?
How often does alcohol factor into those scenarios?
How often is drug or alcohol impairment a factor in violent assaults?


Cheers.

Yes, I'm quite sure domestic abuse in the East End at that time was rife, however I would also tend to think that the majority of these incidents would take place indoors and not out in the streets. I'm certainly not arguing that attacks on women weren't uncommon but I'm a little less sure about how many of these women were killed from having their throat cut. I can't imagine that that was quite so common, although I really don't know enough to say for sure. Of course if such a thing was a common occurrence then the case for Stride being a Ripper victim weakens (only my opinion though!).

Cheers!

Jamie

[Fisherman]

Jamie writes:
"I would also tend to think that the majority of these incidents would take place indoors "

That, Jamie, rests very much on the supposition that there WAS a home to get beaten up in. These women lived practically in the streets, and slept in doss-houses!

The best!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

To digress just a moment, something occurred to me today. We all know you favor Michael Kidney as the killer of Stride...but who do you favor as being Jack the Ripper?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

I see you were kind enough to give me credit in your post. Of course, you used it to make your point. Very sneaky.

c.d.

[FrankO]

Yes, I'm quite sure domestic abuse in the East End at that time was rife, however I would also tend to think that the majority of these incidents would take place indoors and not out in the streets.

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the boards!

As to your remark above, I'd say this might be true for couples who were still together and shared some lodgings, but couples who had split up wouldn't have such a shared place anymore. Therefore, it isn't hard to imagine that (physical) arguments between the two would take place in the streets, even those that ended up in one attacking and killing the other.


All the best,
Frank

[Jamie Angus]

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the boards!

As to your remark above, I'd say this might be true for couples who were still together and shared some lodgings, but couples who had split up wouldn't have such a shared place anymore. Therefore, it isn't hard to imagine that (physical) arguments between the two would take place in the streets, even those that ended up in one attacking and killing the other.


All the best,
Frank

Thanks for that Frank (and Fisherman!), fair comment, certainly glad I wasn't a woman in the East End in 1888! Doesn't sound like very much fun at all.

I realise that I'm beating the hell out of this somewhat but I'd still be interested in determining roughly how common throat slashing was as the preferred method of dispatch for female murder victims in that area of London during the relevant period? I accept there were a lot of assaults but was there a lot of this specific type of assault?

Cheers!

Jamie

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jamie,

I accept there were a lot of assaults but was there a lot of this specific type of assault?

Looking at the Old Bailey records for the years 1865/1875, 1875/1885, and 1885/1895, there seems to have been between 200 and 270 cases that involved a stabbing every decade. I guess we could put the average at roughly 25 per year. Bear in mind that these cases were only those which actually had a defendant to answer for the crime, and of those, only such as made it to the Old Bailey. Seen in that light, the number of unsolved or unreported stabbings in London were most certainly much, much higher than 25 per year.

The number of incidents cut throats are fewer in number - less than five of them between 1865-1895. However, the same caveats apply about these being only "detected" crimes, where a suspect was apprehended and tried at the Old Bailey. The real figure would have been much higher, and this much we know from the Whitechapel Murders alone.

Unfortunately, not every such undetected murder was guaranteed to make it to the pages of the press. To compound the situation still further, we don't have anything like a complete library of inquest records that might shed some light on those that went unrecorded elsewhere.

On that basis, the stabbing statistics, suitably adjusted downwards, may be the only yardstick we have by which to gauge knife crime in general, and throat-cutting in particular. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that, if someone was capable of stabbing, then they certainly had the means - if not the inclination - to cut the odd throat too.

[Jamie Angus]

Hi Sam, many thanks for your detailed response, that was exactly the information I was looking for!

The statistics on cut throats was particularly illuminating - less than five "detected" crimes in 30 years. I wonder what percentage of murders went unsolved at that time, it was probably a great deal more than today! Would be interesting to know the circumstances of the "throat cutting cases", were they a result of indoor domestic quarrels, streetfights, were the victims male or female etc. Whilst I completely accept your argument about there likely being many more such incidents that went unsolved, less than five detected cases in thirty years that specifically involve cut throats seems pretty low to me, a heck of a lot less than I thought there would be. Also, forgive my ignorance on London geography, but did the Old Bailey just cover the East End or do these statistics relate to the whole of London? While we're at it, you don't happen to have a rough idea of the percentage of murders in the East End of the 1880s that came to court do you?

The Whitechapel murders, as you say, are examples of an unsolved series of crimes that never made it to court and thus do not figure in the statistics. Should the Ripper have been apprehended and tried, would that not have more than doubled the number of throat cutting cases on the Old Baileys books? Over thirty years?! I wonder what that says about the rarity of this method of murder. I have to say that I think it puts the theory of there being two throat slashers operating within the same square mile of the East End on the night of the Stride/Eddowes killing on really quite shaky ground indeed. No?

Anyway, thanks again Sam!

Jamie

[albie]

A question. Wasn't Louis Diemshutz also possibly called Lewis Diemshitz?

I saw this in a book by Daniel Farson. He says the latter spelling occurs in a broadsheet.

[Fisherman]

Correct, Albie - and it seems Diemschitz is the more spot on version. But most people use Diemschutz anyhow - habits stick.

The best,
Fisherman