What makes her such a likely candidate?

[slysnide]

Well caz, the lack of logic is a reasonable way to argue Liz out of JTR's vics. See my earlier posts about why that is.

Question to anybody: Why are all the links under the "Witnesses" section on the left of the screen completely empty? They just link to a page which says: "No data has been posted about them" or something like that.

And Kidney isn't listed under the suspect list, and he too has no data under his linked name on the Witness list.

[lynn cates]

who killed Liz

Hello Caz. Thanks for the kind remarks.

Actually, I never intended to argue that someone was trying to pass off Liz as Jack's work. I was merely noting that the police were prepared to see a Jack killing and so did. (There was an analogous passage in the Cadfael episode where the sheriff shrugs and notes that there is only a difference of 1 corpse--so what.) I regret the lack of clarity.

I have tried reliving all 5 canonical murders and I find very few problems with C1, C2, and C4. But both C3 and C5 give me a headache. (I cannot rest until I can reconstruct the killing satisfactorily.)

Who killed Liz? I wish for Jack. I don't suspect Kidney because I think such a chap would have broken down and confessed at the inquest while blubbering like a baby. I feel like it could be an ex-client, perhaps falling in love with Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

...if this assassin didn't have time to make a single Jack-like slash

I've no doubt that he could have found that extra second somewhere, if he'd needed it, Caz.

[caz]

The coroner placed Liz's time of death between 12:46 and 12:56. Kate was alive at 1:35, discovered at 1:44--if memory serves.

Hi Lynn,

Just to clarify, Blackwell's best estimate was within 20 minutes of his arrival at 1:16, but no more than 30 minutes at the very outside. This would put Liz's most likely time of death after 12:56 but certainly no earlier than 12:46.

Can no one save Liz's place amongst the canonicals?

Hi Lynn,

I think you may have that the wrong way round. If the last poll was anything to go by Liz's place is as safe as houses. Nobody has yet managed to argue her out of Jack's murderous grip.

The argument that someone else killed Liz and hoped to 'hide' her among the Whitechapel Murderer's victims doesn't quite work because if this assassin didn't have time to make a single Jack-like slash then Jack wouldn't have had time either. Some posters (not you I hasten to add! ) want to have it both ways. Whoever killed Liz was not still with her body at the moment of death, whether he went to hide in the shadows while she lay dying or legged it straight out of the yard after inflicting a single cut. Does this fit with someone she could have identified, who had no experience of inflicting fatal knife wounds and therefore could have bungled this one for all he knew and left her able to talk? Or with a complete stranger who had very recent throat-cutting experience with similar women, and had no fear of this one grassing him up?

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

one corpse too many

Hello Sly. That's the sensible view.

I desperately want to have Liz in the canon, and sometimes am close to stifling my doubts and moving with the flow.

But I am reminded, then, of one of my favourite Cadfael episodes, "One Corpse too many" where there has been a mass hanging and Brother Cadfael is supposed to prepare the bodies for burial. He is informed that the number of corpses is precisely k, whereas he discovers k + 1 cadavers. He investigates and finds dissimilarities on one of the bodies. His conclusion: someone murdered someone and is trying to dispose of the body in a convenient way.

Food for thought.

Cheers.
LC

[slysnide]

Actually Lynn, you're theory on the previous page makes sense. It's always been my belief that there was a 3wk break between killing Annie & Kate because of police security increases. After all there was only 8 days separating the Polly & Annie murder. And Annie's wasn't much escalation in regards to the savagery as he had no reason to be frustrated. And if we are to believe he killed MJK, then security would be even tighter after the double murder, forcing Jack to wait it out, but getting impatient, he broke his MO by preying upon a younger woman indoors because she was more vulnerable (asleep and not alert or expecting anyone), and because it would provide privacy--ie, no police wandering around.

And possibly because of the extra long wait between the Eddowes & MJK murders his increasing frustration and fighting off the temptation to kill is what drove him to mutilate MJK so badly. Serial killers are known to behave this way when forced to go into hiatus for an extended period of time, thus justifying facial mutilation to Eddowes after a 3wk wait as opposed to a one week wait. That is assuming it wasn't frustration over NOT mutilating Stride in which I'm perpetuating that if he didn't kill her, then there'd still be a reason to escalate the savagery on Eddowes. Escalation was his game. He mutilated Polly but didn't take anything, nor was she eviscerated. It was the opposite with Annie, and then the same + facial mutilation with Kate. And lastly, all out mutilation on MJK. Always escalating. The first time was practice, as with most serial killers they don't go all the way the first time. Then he did with Annie, but frustration over a 3wk hiatus prompted him to do worse to Eddowes, and a 5.5wk break thereafter prompted him to go all out on MJK. Just a theory I know, but it goes along with most profiles/analyzations on why they escalate. And killing Stride can fit in too, thus adding to the frustration of a 3wk hiatus.

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello CD. It would indeed. I tried reconstructing this at home (I was able to convince my wife NOT to phone the police--science, you know) and here's my resulting problem.

1. Jack and Liz near the wall, her back to the wall. He could grab her scarf with the left hand, slash with the right, lay her down (quite naturally, I might add) feet toward gate. (Try this first.)

Problem: this is fairly close to side door. Highly risky.

2. Jack and Liz going INTO yard. Jack gets nervous at the noise, slashes, bolts.

Problem: since she was next the wall, her left carotid would be aimed at Jack. Moreover, she would most naturally be placed with head toward gate.

3. Finally, try walking away from the yard. Liz is next the building. Jack reaches over with left hand (it would be natural to walk close--maybe arm around shoulder), pulls scarf while slashing with the right where he has now grasped the knife. She slumps and he lays her down on her left side, feet toward gate.

Problem: can't find a problem.

Does one perform oral sex with cachous in hand? I suppose it could be done.

Thanks and let me know how the reconstruction comes out.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Liz might have used the yard to conduct business on previous occasions and was aware that there was a privy there where she could freshen up (if you will) before her next customer. Also, Jack might have had occasions in the past where his insistence on a certain location aroused suspicion and the deal fell through.

I am having a little trouble understanding the Liz appeared to be exiting the yard argument. I can think of a couple of things that could account for that. She and Jack could have concluded their business (I'm thinking oral sex here) ans she was starting to leave or perhaps she got a bit skittish and suspicious and turned her back on him and started to leave. Also, and this is where I get confused, wouldn't the direction of her feet simply depend on which direction her killer laid her down?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

devil in the details

Hello CD. I thank you. I think I agree with many of those points. My worst hurdle to overcome here is this. Jack's usual methodology seems to have involved coming on to the prostitute's as a punter; setting them at ease; strangling to unconsciousness; killing by carotid slash; evisceration; etc.

Now, let's assume that Fido is correct and Liz was in business mode that night. Perhaps she was working at the corner of Fairclough and Berner. I presume she attracted Jack's attention and, at some point, she suggested a fulfillment of contract. Where to? Well, the yard is noisy. How about the stable at the end. Perfect! Nice and quiet and, one hopes, the smell of horse dung is not terribly unerotic.

The problem seems to be that Liz was killed EXITING the yard. Look at the body placement. It would help immensely if she had met, say, club member Kosminski (or even, Kaminski) at the side door and he killed her seconds afterward. But that does seem VERY improbable.

The same problem does not seem to crop up with C1, C2 and C4.

Help?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Fish. Quite so.

Can no one save Liz's place amongst the canonicals?

LC

Hi Lynn,

Well I can try. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Everybody has to make up his own mind but here are a few points to consider:

1. Jack was human not a robot and therefore would have acted differently in different circumstances.

2. Jack was a serial killer and not a bank robber. A desire to kill could have overridden good judgment.

3. Given a choice, Jack probably would have preferred not to have been caught and hanged.

4. Diemschutz stated that he felt that the killer was still in the yard when he arrived with his pony.

5. Liz was not the only woman in the world. There were many others in Whitechapel and they all had organs that could be removed.

6. If you believe that Jack killed Kate, then he was out that night not far away from where liz was killed.

7. If it wasn't Jack, how strong a case can be made against anyone else being her killer?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

saving Liz

Hello Fish. Quite so.

Can no one save Liz's place amongst the canonicals?

LC

[Fisherman]

Leaving out the eviscerations was bizarre enough for me, Lynn ...

As for your suggestion, it much resembles how the poisonous puffadder snakes do their job - they dig down into the sand and hope something edible will pass by. If that tactic fails, they often succumb to starvation.

My guess is that Jack was more agile, more clever and more choosy than that.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

that too

Hello Fish. That is correct.

But you haven't commented on my bizarre fantasy.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"On the other hand, she was found on her side, not back, like the other 4 canonicals.

Next, her clothes seemed not to be disarranged as the others.

Moreover, her neck wound was much less deep that C1 and C2.

Finally, the location would be must inconducive to secrecy."

There was some small matter of a cancelled evisceration too, was there not...?

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

sic et non

Hello Sly. There are similarities and dissimilarities in Liz's murder compared to the other canonicals.

First, like all the other canonicals, she had her throat cut and suffered haemorrhage from the carotid artery. Like 4 out of 5 canonicals it was the left carotid.

Second, it was (roughly) in the district where 3 other canonicals died--Whitechapel and Spitalfields.

Third, although likely not strangled like Polly (?) and Annie, she may have been taken down by her neck scarf.

On the other hand, she was found on her side, not back, like the other 4 canonicals.

Next, her clothes seemed not to be disarranged as the others.

Moreover, her neck wound was much less deep that C1 and C2.

Finally, the location would be most inconducive to secrecy.

I have tried to work out various scenarios to save Liz's place in the canon. (I think part of me died when St. Christopher was jettisoned from the roll of saints, so it's natural for me to cling to tradition.) Here's my best.

Jack would be waiting in the darkness near the stable at the end of Dutfield's yard. Liz is pacing back and forth waiting for her "date." As she paces TOWARD the gate, he comes up from behind, grabs her by the scarf and slashes as she falls. Then he must flee in light of the noisy event a few feet away.

At this point, the old saw about non-fulfillment comes into play and he goes out of district to kill Kate. His frustration gets vented upon Kate by the facial mutilations. But I agree with you that going back later to Goulston st. would be most risky.

The big problem with my fantasy is this: What the devil was Jack doing in the yard? One could argue he was seeking a victim and the usual channels were blocked due to the increased security in the area. Hence, he hid there earlier in hopes that a female would wander by. (Please don't laugh.) Meanwhile, the big meeting next door commenced and Jack became frustrated and decided to force his way out.

As I said, this is PURE fantasy. I hope you can do better. (Perhaps aliens would be a bit more plausible.)

Cheers.
LC