What makes her such a likely candidate?

[Izzy]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

As to the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, it's worth noting that it was probably no darker - indeed, probably less so - than Mitre Square, where Jack mutilated Eddowes to what was, until then, an unprecedented extent, and in a comparatively short space of time.

Although your suggestion is good thinking, the things you mention above are also applicable to Buck's Row, where Nichols was murdered.

I agree that if it turns out that the passageway into Dutfields yard was no more dark than Mitre Square or Buck's Row, then one can hardly blame the lighting conditions for the lack of mutilation on Strides body.

Concerning Mitre Square, I am under the impression that it was fairly dark where Eddowes was slain but not quite as dark as the passageway into Dutfields yard. From what I understand there were 2 lamps on Mitre Square which should be able to provide at least some illumination, even though the murder was committed in the darkest corner.

Buck's Row, on the other hand, is a compelling counter argument to my thesis. From what I understand the conditions there were very dark indeed and at the same time presented no problem for good ol' Jack. Martha Tabram also comes to mind, although her injuries were of a slightly different nature than later victims (if indeed she was a Ripper victim at all).

Taking all this into account I must conclude that the lack of mutilation on the body of Liz Stride most probably was not a result of poor lighting conditions, but caused by some other factor.

I'm just reading Dave Yost's new book, Elizabeth Stride and JtR

Sounds interesting, I'll check it out.

[anna]

Hi everyone,
This thread has kicked up a couple of points I have always wondered about myself..
My first point is this...we are talking about Jack killing and mutilating in very dark places.....add to this the discussion that Jack was a local with no formal medical training,and possibly that he was,or had been,a slaughterman.
It doesn't add up...killing in the dark,I can go for.Mutilating in the dark,I cannot....(Margo,Good Life..been watching the repeats!!!)
Surely if he is a local,therefore not the brightest spark in the box of matches,he is not likely to be able to contain his coolness,and mutilate in the dark(if indeed a slaughterhouse worker-who incidentally,I would think cut animals with some light on)..so I don't go for the local/slaughterhouse theory.

As to Stride.....I was wondering the same as another two ladies here..perhaps the women can see something the boys can't.
Sam says,there would have been other people murdered at that time by a cut to the throat..I presume some of them women.So,why weren't they included as Jack victims.Apart from the obvious of Kate's murder shortly after...doesn't explain for me,the circumstances following Liz's murder..with the yard sealed off and gates closed a.s.a.p,signifies to me that they took this to be a JTR murder without Kate's one yet to be achieved.It has always meant to me,that either they saw something we are not aware of...maybe something else he did at the scene,or sommething they had managed to deduce amongst themselves at the station,that we are not aware of.I have always felt that there is some sort of knowledge that was lost in 1888, that tied her into the 5.
A cut to the throat and another murder shortly after on the same night,is not enough for me...especially with so much other violence that would have taken place at the same time...why didn't they look at Liz and say..Oh,just another attack of violence,poor woman got cut and like with other we are called to quite often,then,she is surrounded by coppers and carted off to the morgue.With Liz,they practically go to Mary extremes and seal off the crime scene instantly,and before Kates murder is knowledge to them.
I just feel there's more to Liz's murder than meets the eye nowadays.

[Fisherman]

Please remember, Anna, that when Nichols was lifted onto the ambulance and hurried away, there was no knowledge about the extensive damage to her abdominal region. The police will have learnt their lesson from that.
With Stride, there was knowledge that an eviscerating killer, who incidentally cut throats, was on the prowl.
So what do you do when you find a woman with a slit throat in the East End? Exactly, you make the very good assumption that this could be another Ripper victim, and you seal off the premises and start making a thorough search, with the clear aim not to miss out IF it proves that the cut lady is a Ripper victim.
There is nothing strange about that, and I dare say that the often resurfacing notion that the deed must have had something to it that convinced the police that it was a Ripper killing, has nothing at all to it. On the contrary, Stride was lying seemingly peacefully on her side in the yard, unmutilated and with a comparatively shallow wound to her neck, something that leads at least me in another direction altogether.

The best,
Fisherman

[anna]

And something else to add would be this..
Even in these more sophisticated times,we always instinctively look for a light as opposed to making do with the dark,if we have to do something.
OK,they were used to less light than we are nowadays,with gas lamps being their main sorce of illumination.
But I still think an ordinary local would have chosen lighted areas instinctively,for any sort of task that required some sort of concentration.
A local "ordinary" person I would think would also have fled the scenes after killing the women..hanging around to mutilate would be far too risky to these simple folk.Killing = scarper before your'e caught,don't hang around.Are we really to believe someone with this sort of mindset...that would have been very strongly ingrained in them,in everyday life..hangs around to cut women in a way that would have meant having to spend time and do things that would equal the noose,and out in an open location where other locals might pass by.
I think this is expecting too much of the occupants of the Whitechapel area.
Simple folk,simple deeds.

[anna]

Hi Fisherman,
With the fact in mind that the police would have seen a lady lying peacefully on her side with a cut to the throat..etc...
Would they not have witness more violent scenes in the days between Chapman and Stride amongst the ordinary folk of Whitechapel...much more inclined to be dragged into JTR than Liz.....
Nicolls and Chapman's murders were more violent than Liz.....so I would have thought if they found any other women with cuts and violence in the days between Chapman and Liz,they would have been reported as JTR maybe's in the papers?

[anna]

Just to finish off my posts...
Somebody also added in this thread that it is also likely people saw but kept their mouths shut.
I agree with this most strongly.
We have Sam,who tells us that this area was heavily populated.We seem to see few people out on the streets when reports of witnesses are around.Probably because everyone else who saw,has had the sense to scarper.
I would think many saw things,lots of chatter revealed plenty,probably who Jack was...but think of it this way..
If you lived in those times,and you said what you saw...that might be told to someone else,and like disease it would spread....they didn't know who was friend or foe...who was even friend of Jack..
Would you have risked your own safety by telling...No.
Hence the reason why when Kelly was killed..I would think all those who spoke out like Prater,would have known full well where the cry of "murder" came from...they knew where to listen for Kelly...
Everybody is keeping their mouths shut.
All are just my opinion...with some past thoughts mixed in to add to the topic.

[Fisherman]

I think, Anna, that they were extremely alerted to the fact that the Ripper was on the loose. But there are no other slayings of East End prostitutes inbetween Chapman and Stride, meaning that much as they could and would have asked all other people involved in violent incidents about these eruptions of violence, they simply could not question a dead woman in the same manner.
A cut throat, a dead prostituted woman, an East End offence - those ingredients together with Strides´ silence, mean that it would have resembled miscarriage of justice if they had NOT followed up on the possible lead that it was the Rippers work.

The best, Anna!
Fisherman

[mac-the-kipper]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went... or he could have already ran off after killing Stride because Schwartz had spotted him (if he did) or at some other interruption. Trying to say what the killer did or did not do based upon such limited information is just guess work at best.

Err, righto Dan............err just exactly as you have here?
Would you still want my research notes from 1988?

[anna]

Thanks for the reply Fisherman!
You have intrigued me,with your ideas on Stride...

Regards,
ANNA.

[Dan Norder]

Would you still want my research notes from 1988?

Depends who you are and what they are about. Is this even Stride related or are you just jumping over from a Sept. 17th hoax letter thread to try to continue that argument some more?

[mac-the-kipper]

Depends who you are and what they are about. Is this even Stride related or are you just jumping over from a Sept. 17th hoax letter thread to try to continue that argument some more?

You asked me for my notes a couple of years ago. I'm about to bin them to make room in my bookcase.

[FrankO]

But I still think an ordinary local would have chosen lighted areas instinctively,for any sort of task that required some sort of concentration.

Hi Anna!

It seems that the women the Ripper chose were prostituting themselves on the nights they were killed. It was quite customary that the women did the accosting and the choosing of the spot for doing business. As prostitution wasn’t legal, these spots would logically be rather secluded, dark and/or quiet spots. So, the Ripper probably just didn’t have much of a choice. I believe he went with the cards that opportunity dealt him.

A local "ordinary" person I would think would also have fled the scenes after killing the women..hanging around to mutilate would be far too risky to these simple folk.Killing = scarper before your'e caught,don't hang around.Are we really to believe someone with this sort of mindset...that would have been very strongly ingrained in them,in everyday life..hangs around to cut women in a way that would have meant having to spend time and do things that would equal the noose,and out in an open location where other locals might pass by.

The fact that the Ripper took time to mutilate his victims’ abdomen doesn’t tell us anything about whether the Ripper was local or not. What you say would be equally true for non-locals. They would equally risk the noose by staying on the scene mutilating. What it does tell us is that the mutilations were of major importance to the Ripper, or else indeed he would have fled the scene after cutting the throat.

Simple folk,simple deeds.

The way I see it is that, besides lucky, the Ripper was quite practical & to-the-point and that he doesn't seem to have made intricate plans to achieve his goals/satisfy his dark needs. So, in that sense I think his deeds were actaully rather simple.

All the best,
Frank

[perrymason]

Hi! I was just wondering if someone could clear something up for a newbie like me. What clue and/or method of deduction makes Liz Stride such a likely candidate of being a Ripper victim that wasn't mutilated because the killer was sacred off? Because so far, aside from the brutal murder of Catherine Eddows an hour later, she looks to me about as likely (or unlikely) of being a Jack the Ripper victim as Frances Coles or, say, Alice McKenzie. So, what piece of information about Elizabeth Stride's murder am I missing here?

Hi Em,

In simple terms, there is no sound argument that explains the inclusion of Liz Stride among the Ripper victims. She was seen being assaulted minutes before her death by someone who is hardly "The Ripper", the yard was testified as empty minutes before her assault....making Jack hiding in the yard pure supposition, she had a single death cut and there is no evidence........NONE....that indicated her killer started, was about to start, initiated, commenced, or altered her body position in order to commit the trademark post mortem mutilations.

She is included because she was killed with a knife, at night, and she was a street whore. Odd though......if Martha Tabram wasnt killed by Jack, and the Torso's werent created by Jack, and the other murders you mention among others werent thought to be Jack...including the far more logical "Jack" type victims with matching wound patterns to some of the Canonicals......funny why this "Jack" is assumed to be the only knife killer of women at night during that period of time.

Jack...or the killer they called Jack, mutilated post mortem. Liz wasnt.

Best regards.

[Elias]

She is included because she was killed with a knife, at night, and she was a street whore. Odd though......if Martha Tabram wasnt killed by Jack, and the Torso's werent created by Jack, and the other murders you mention among others werent thought to be Jack...including the far more logical "Jack" type victims with matching wound patterns to some of the Canonicals......funny why this "Jack" is assumed to be the only knife killer of women at night during that period of time.


Best regards.

Hi perry,

Surely the obvious difference between Stride and other victims like Tabram is that a mutilated body wasn't found close by soon after their deaths.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=perrymason;37315]Hi Em,

In simple terms, there is no sound argument that explains the inclusion of Liz Stride among the Ripper victims.

Say what???? Do you just ignore any arguments to the contrary?

c.d.