What makes her such a likely candidate?

[Hellrider]

Of course not..I guess in the case of the Whitechapel Murderer/Jack the MO was used to be able to ascertain who MIGHT have died by his hand because many people died violently in those times and circumstances

[Celesta]

What sticks in my mind about this victim is the approach. Schwartz saw the drunk man grab Stride and push her down into the street. In other words there were witnesses. To anyone's knowledge, no one witnessed an approach like this for any other Ripper victim.

She still could have been one of Jack's victims. The timing would have been tight though, between Schwartz's roaming drunk and the appearance of a new thug, JTR, on the scene. If the drunk was the Ripper, he must have been sloshed indeed to act so aggressively in front of witnesses.

Nell has a point about the hat, too.

[Fisherman]

Carrotty Nell writes:

"...it was actually the sailor hat I was thinking of - that's why I called him Jolly Jack. But this was Sugden's baby, so pretty authoritative. Sailor hat in Berner Street c.11.45, Sailor hat in Church Lane c.1.30, Sailor hat in Duke's Place c. 1.35 - odd coincidence"

Not really, Nell - in East end venues peaked caps were very, very common.

Wasn´t it the American Hat Corporation that once stated that they were willing to pay just about anything to make Kennedy wear a hat - and to refrain Chrustjev from doing so? But really, there are ways to tell even hatsporting gents apart, even if they wear the same kind of hat. Laurel and Hardy did, and they were not too hard to tell apart. Nor should it produce any difficulty to do so with one respectably clad gentleman in a cutaway and a shabby, rough type in loose-fitting attire. Wearing the same type of hat won´t make up for the rest.

All the best, Nell!

Fisherman

[Izzy]

Long time reader, first time poster. So please be gentle with me.

As a see it the most common argument against Stride being a ripper victim is the lack of mutilation. And the standard answer is that the killer was disturbed, either by (1) Schwarz and Pipeman or (2) Diemschutz. But ever since I started reading about the Whitechapel murders I have had another possibility in mind that I would like some feedback on.

It is my understanding that the place where Stride was found was very badly lit. I am wondering if it is at all possible to mutilate someone ripper-fashion under those circumstances. For example, at first Diemschutz had no idea that there was a body blocking the way. And I believe (but could be mistaken, please correct me in that case) the extent of the injuries to the throat was discovered first when a policeman shone a flashlight on the body.

Well, my main question is: Keeping this in mind, isn't it possible that one can explain the lack of mutilation by a combination of (1) a lack of illumination where the murder occurred and (2) an unwillingness by the murderer to move the body in order to inflict the mutilation?

As English is my second language (yes, I am another one of thoses swedes, although I seldom subscribe to either their pet theories nor conclusions) I apologize in advance for error in spelling and grammar and hope my main points pass the language barrier.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Izzy, and welcome.

As to the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, it's worth noting that it was probably no darker - indeed, probably less so - than Mitre Square, where Jack mutilated Eddowes to what was, until then, an unprecedented extent, and in a comparatively short space of time.

[The Grave Maurice]

Welcome Izzy,

I wish my English were as good as what yours is, mate.

I'm just reading Dave Yost's new book, Elizabeth Stride and JtR, and he emphasizes how dark it was in Dutfield's Yard. The passageway that led to the rear of the yard was, apparently, only about three metres wide. That, combined with the height of the IWEC, and no near-by artificial lighting, would have made it very dark indeed. Mitre Square, because of its size, might have admitted a tad more ambient light.

So you could be on to something, although I think I still tend to go with what is probably now the old-school theory that the killer was simply interrupted by the arrival of Diemshutz and his pony.

[Elias]

My gut instict is that Stride is a Ripper victim. But there's always a doubt in my mind about it, not because of the lack of mutilations, for me it's quite clear that he was disturbed, but it's that I always see Jack as a very 'clever' killer, aware of police movements and local geography etc which meant he was able to avoid detection, but attacking Stride where he did seems to point to an impulse killer, I just can't see how he ever thought he would have enough time to fulfill all his desires in such a relatively busy area at that time of night. This attack just seems to me so out of character when compared to the other attacks. The more I think about the Dutfield Yard attack, the more I think Jack was merely extremely lucky, nothing more. For me the only other explanation is that after a fairly long break, probably due to increased police presence, he was desperate for another kill and thus took bigger risks.

[Mitch Rowe]

My gut instict is that Stride is a Ripper victim. But there's always a doubt in my mind about it, not because of the lack of mutilations, for me it's quite clear that he was disturbed, but it's that I always see Jack as a very 'clever' killer, aware of police movements and local geography etc which meant he was able to avoid detection, but attacking Stride where he did seems to point to an impulse killer, I just can't see how he ever thought he would have enough time to fulfill all his desires in such a relatively busy area at that time of night. This attack just seems to me so out of character when compared to the other attacks. The more I think about the Dutfield Yard attack, the more I think Jack was merely extremely lucky, nothing more. For me the only other explanation is that after a fairly long break, probably due to increased police presence, he was desperate for another kill and thus took bigger risks.

Well...JTR might have killed on impulse because Diemschutz arrived and he had to get out of there. We really have no idea how safe JTR might have considered Dutfields yard. It could have been there was a nice lighted area in an out of the way place in the yard. The only way to have made worthy decisions about those things would have been to view the yard that very night.

[FrankO]

I am wondering if it is at all possible to mutilate someone ripper-fashion under those circumstances. For example, at first Diemschutz had no idea that there was a body blocking the way. And I believe (but could be mistaken, please correct me in that case) the extent of the injuries to the throat was discovered first when a policeman shone a flashlight on the body.

Hi Izzy,

First of all, welcome aboard!

Although your suggestion is good thinking, the things you mention above are also applicable to Buck's Row, where Nichols was murdered. It was so dark there that the first man to enter the scene after the Ripper left, Charles Cross, at first he thought Nichols' body was a tarpaulin. Even when he was joined by Robert Paul, the couple didn't notice that the woman's throat was cut. Later PC Neil could only see that with the help of his bullseye. We know that Nichols' abdomen were mutilated, although not completely opened so that he could take any organs. But it seems that he was able to mutilate, even though lighting conditions were quite poor.

All the best,
Frank

[Elias]

The only way to have made worthy decisions about those things would have been to view the yard that very night.

Maybe, but at the very least to attack right next to a fairly busy club, at an earlier time, shows a big difference in the other attacks. Also the number of witness around the yard that night, whether they saw Jack or not, shows that it was relatively well populated around the time of the attack.

Again the more I think about this attack, the more I think he was lucky, and that had he not been led into more secluded places by the other victims, he would've attacked them anywhere, regardless of how vulnerable he was.

Cheers.

[mac-the-kipper]

Anyone that has worked with horses or ponies will tell you that, if shod, they can be heard 'clip clopping' along cobbles from a great distance. Was the killer disturbed at all? Or did he hear the pony and cart coming with ample time to make his exit? The level of noise in the streets in 1888 would have been significantly lower than today. Especially after markets had closed, most people would have been indoors.

I don't believe there is a single chance that the killer was 'surprised' by the pony and cart. He would have had plenty of time to mutilate and make his escape.

[c.d.]

Anyone that has worked with horses or ponies will tell you that, if shod, they can be heard 'clip clopping' along cobbles from a great distance. Was the killer disturbed at all? Or did he hear the pony and cart coming with ample time to make his exit? The level of noise in the streets in 1888 would have been significantly lower than today. Especially after markets had closed, most people would have been indoors.

I don't believe there is a single chance that the killer was 'surprised' by the pony and cart. He would have had plenty of time to mutilate and make his escape.

Hi Mac,

Why are we assuming that there were no other disturbances besides the pony and cart? Consider the venue. Jack should have been able to see the lights from the club and hear the singing inside. I would imagine that would make him quite edgy in and of itself. There was also a privy outside, I believe. Is it unreasonable to assume that someone might have come outside to use the privy or simply for a breath of fresh air? What if two people left the club at the same time and stood outside to talk for a few minutes before departing? There are any number of reasons that Jack could have been disturbed. If he had to duck back into the shadows for any length of time, I can see him thinking this is a bad business, why take a chance when there are other potential victims about. Just move on to the next one which is what I believe he did.

c.d.

[KatBradshaw]

Thats a very good point Mac!! I am sure that the killer would have heard the horse. That being said he would not have known that the killer was going in to the yard that he was in. Also the killer does seem to have struck in areas where he could easily have been discovered without worry.

[Dan Norder]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went... or he could have already ran off after killing Stride because Schwartz had spotted him (if he did) or at some other interruption. Trying to say what the killer did or did not do based upon such limited information is just guess work at best.

[FrankO]

Being able to hear the pony wouldn't have meant that the killer knew the cart's intended destination. He could have been watching it, waiting to see where it went...

Exactly, Dan. Whenever he heard the cart & pony, he could have waited to see what would happen. On the other hand, if the cart would turn into the yard, he knew there was no chance in hell he would get to the part that seems to have made him tick: the mutilations. Furthermore, he must not have acted too suspiciously right until the moment he struck (no alarm, no physical signs of a struggle). Or, in other words, there was no reason to kill on account of him having done anything incriminating yet. That's why I think he probably wasn't interrupted by Diemshutz.

All the best,
Frank