What makes her such a likely candidate?

[slysnide]

Thanks for that.

So it seems he did have a headstart on the police if the Stride murder happened within 4-14 minutes before the police discovered the body, with a not so reasonable amount of time between Eddowes death and discovery. Point being that Eddowes became Point B from Stride being Point A. Whether or not the police immediately believed the killings to be connected upon finding Eddowes doesn't matter as she was most likely found as a result of a search for Stride's killer, or the constable who discovered her at least knew of the Stride murder since there was a 45 minute gap between the two which is more than enough time for word to spread. Point being that it'd seem logical to search between points A & B for the culprit. The big thing being Point C, the graffiti at Goulston Street. To double back when the search will probably encompass that area, or the other police would travel to Point B from Point A and would therefore undoubtedly pass by Point C seems ridiculous. Granted 10 minutes is enough of a headstart to get to Point C, write the graffiti and run, police would still be in the area, or on there way there. Depending on where the constable who discovered Eddowes was coming from before he found her plays a crucial role. For had he been travelling from Point A then he'd most certainly have seen Eddowes' killer on Goulston Street. Ten minutes to go back, write the graffiti, and find the quickest way out of there. But the killer would have to be quiet about it. Fast running on cobblestone streets echoes easily. And at that time of night it wouldn't be hard to hear someone coming, meaning the constable could've just missed JTR by seconds or mere minutes. But as I said, it depends upon which direction the constable who found Eddowes came from. Given the murder at Berner Street, it'd seem logical that all available police in the area would be put on alert and charged to search certain areas for the killer.

Which all leads me to my second point. It certainly DOES NOT take 45 minutes to travel from Berner Street to Mitre Square. So what was JTR doing during that time IF he were the killer of both women. Seems to illogical to hang around. Implying more so that he was interupted and valued his identity being kept secret rather than risking engaging a plausible witness. This evidence of the time gap suggests that JTR didn't kill Liz Stride. However if there was a place to hide until he got to Mitre Square or if he hid near there is uknown. Risky to hide and then come out to kill & dissect and double back to graffiti a wall and leave evidence that it was you who did it. With these circumstances it's becoming more and more probable that Stride wasn't a ripper victim. After all, it doesn't take 20-30 minutes to travel to Mitre Square from Berner Street right? If it was the same guy then he must've hidden somewhere and lost logic in deciding to come out and kill Eddowes and graffiti a wall. Or he was just really lucky.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Although I'm not exactly convinced Jack killed Stride (more so due to the location of her death and her throat wound), if Jack did kill her as well as Eddowes, the time between the two murders could have been because Jack was looking for another victim and/or murder site during those 45-odd minutes.

[lynn cates]

start spreadin' the news

Hello Sly. Your observation:

"Whether or not the police immediately believed the killings to be connected upon finding Eddowes doesn't matter as she was most likely found as a result of a search for Stride's killer, or the constable who discovered her at least knew of the Stride murder"

might need a slight emendation. Eddowes was found by a PC walking the beat--if I recall. Of course, you offer that disjunctively, so we can rule out the left disjunct.

Concerning the right disjunct, it would not be clear that the beat PC who found Eddowes would have known of Stride's killing since it was presumably a bit AFTER 1:00 AM before the police arrived at Dutfield's yard and Kate was killed in a different jurisdiction, a few blocks west.

Cheers.
LC

[slysnide]

That's right, separate jurisdiction. Forgot about that. Still a short distance to not notify the other district, considering how on edge everyone was during the previous 4wks. And it still seems bizarre that if JTR killed both he'd hang around 35 minutes after the discovery of Stride before killing Eddowes, only to return to graffiti at Goulston Street a block or so east towards the Stride killing and then confess to writing it by leaving Eddowes' bloody apron there. Way too illogical for a streetwise guy. Afterall the chances that he just got lucky in killing & dissecting the previous 2 w/out interruption by a constable walking his beat are pretty slim. Considering how shortly after K&Ding them that they were discovered. At least on the night of 9/30/88 when they were found relatively quickly, and on 9/8/88 when Annie Chapman was found approximately 20 minutes later. And to deliberately search for another victim so close to the proximity of the first kill is too risky & foolish for a guy so streetwise since there'd be an understandable concern of being discovered by other constables on alert. Or if we are to assume that he was just lucky with slipping away 20 minutes before the discovery of AC, then he may have been gambling on that luck to work after killing Stride.

So the aforementioned considered, then it's more likely Stride wasn't killed by JTR as all accounts of what 'interrupted' JTR from dissecting her after killing her are lacking sufficient evidence to back them up. Plus if he didn't killer her, and wasn't hearing it from the other jurisdiction had they too not known, then it wouldn't be as illogical to go to Goulston Street, since he wouldn't know he'd be heading towards police searches. However had it been solely because Mitre Square was in a separate district that he went that way and killed the first woman he found which fit his liking to satisfy his frustration over Stride as the police in said district would be unaware of the Stride murder, then it'd be genius. Does anyone concur with that last part?

[lynn cates]

sic et non

Hello Sly. There are similarities and dissimilarities in Liz's murder compared to the other canonicals.

First, like all the other canonicals, she had her throat cut and suffered haemorrhage from the carotid artery. Like 4 out of 5 canonicals it was the left carotid.

Second, it was (roughly) in the district where 3 other canonicals died--Whitechapel and Spitalfields.

Third, although likely not strangled like Polly (?) and Annie, she may have been taken down by her neck scarf.

On the other hand, she was found on her side, not back, like the other 4 canonicals.

Next, her clothes seemed not to be disarranged as the others.

Moreover, her neck wound was much less deep that C1 and C2.

Finally, the location would be most inconducive to secrecy.

I have tried to work out various scenarios to save Liz's place in the canon. (I think part of me died when St. Christopher was jettisoned from the roll of saints, so it's natural for me to cling to tradition.) Here's my best.

Jack would be waiting in the darkness near the stable at the end of Dutfield's yard. Liz is pacing back and forth waiting for her "date." As she paces TOWARD the gate, he comes up from behind, grabs her by the scarf and slashes as she falls. Then he must flee in light of the noisy event a few feet away.

At this point, the old saw about non-fulfillment comes into play and he goes out of district to kill Kate. His frustration gets vented upon Kate by the facial mutilations. But I agree with you that going back later to Goulston st. would be most risky.

The big problem with my fantasy is this: What the devil was Jack doing in the yard? One could argue he was seeking a victim and the usual channels were blocked due to the increased security in the area. Hence, he hid there earlier in hopes that a female would wander by. (Please don't laugh.) Meanwhile, the big meeting next door commenced and Jack became frustrated and decided to force his way out.

As I said, this is PURE fantasy. I hope you can do better. (Perhaps aliens would be a bit more plausible.)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"On the other hand, she was found on her side, not back, like the other 4 canonicals.

Next, her clothes seemed not to be disarranged as the others.

Moreover, her neck wound was much less deep that C1 and C2.

Finally, the location would be must inconducive to secrecy."

There was some small matter of a cancelled evisceration too, was there not...?

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

that too

Hello Fish. That is correct.

But you haven't commented on my bizarre fantasy.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Leaving out the eviscerations was bizarre enough for me, Lynn ...

As for your suggestion, it much resembles how the poisonous puffadder snakes do their job - they dig down into the sand and hope something edible will pass by. If that tactic fails, they often succumb to starvation.

My guess is that Jack was more agile, more clever and more choosy than that.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

saving Liz

Hello Fish. Quite so.

Can no one save Liz's place amongst the canonicals?

LC

[c.d.]

Hello Fish. Quite so.

Can no one save Liz's place amongst the canonicals?

LC

Hi Lynn,

Well I can try. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Everybody has to make up his own mind but here are a few points to consider:

1. Jack was human not a robot and therefore would have acted differently in different circumstances.

2. Jack was a serial killer and not a bank robber. A desire to kill could have overridden good judgment.

3. Given a choice, Jack probably would have preferred not to have been caught and hanged.

4. Diemschutz stated that he felt that the killer was still in the yard when he arrived with his pony.

5. Liz was not the only woman in the world. There were many others in Whitechapel and they all had organs that could be removed.

6. If you believe that Jack killed Kate, then he was out that night not far away from where liz was killed.

7. If it wasn't Jack, how strong a case can be made against anyone else being her killer?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

devil in the details

Hello CD. I thank you. I think I agree with many of those points. My worst hurdle to overcome here is this. Jack's usual methodology seems to have involved coming on to the prostitute's as a punter; setting them at ease; strangling to unconsciousness; killing by carotid slash; evisceration; etc.

Now, let's assume that Fido is correct and Liz was in business mode that night. Perhaps she was working at the corner of Fairclough and Berner. I presume she attracted Jack's attention and, at some point, she suggested a fulfillment of contract. Where to? Well, the yard is noisy. How about the stable at the end. Perfect! Nice and quiet and, one hopes, the smell of horse dung is not terribly unerotic.

The problem seems to be that Liz was killed EXITING the yard. Look at the body placement. It would help immensely if she had met, say, club member Kosminski (or even, Kaminski) at the side door and he killed her seconds afterward. But that does seem VERY improbable.

The same problem does not seem to crop up with C1, C2 and C4.

Help?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Liz might have used the yard to conduct business on previous occasions and was aware that there was a privy there where she could freshen up (if you will) before her next customer. Also, Jack might have had occasions in the past where his insistence on a certain location aroused suspicion and the deal fell through.

I am having a little trouble understanding the Liz appeared to be exiting the yard argument. I can think of a couple of things that could account for that. She and Jack could have concluded their business (I'm thinking oral sex here) ans she was starting to leave or perhaps she got a bit skittish and suspicious and turned her back on him and started to leave. Also, and this is where I get confused, wouldn't the direction of her feet simply depend on which direction her killer laid her down?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello CD. It would indeed. I tried reconstructing this at home (I was able to convince my wife NOT to phone the police--science, you know) and here's my resulting problem.

1. Jack and Liz near the wall, her back to the wall. He could grab her scarf with the left hand, slash with the right, lay her down (quite naturally, I might add) feet toward gate. (Try this first.)

Problem: this is fairly close to side door. Highly risky.

2. Jack and Liz going INTO yard. Jack gets nervous at the noise, slashes, bolts.

Problem: since she was next the wall, her left carotid would be aimed at Jack. Moreover, she would most naturally be placed with head toward gate.

3. Finally, try walking away from the yard. Liz is next the building. Jack reaches over with left hand (it would be natural to walk close--maybe arm around shoulder), pulls scarf while slashing with the right where he has now grasped the knife. She slumps and he lays her down on her left side, feet toward gate.

Problem: can't find a problem.

Does one perform oral sex with cachous in hand? I suppose it could be done.

Thanks and let me know how the reconstruction comes out.

Cheers.
LC

[slysnide]

Actually Lynn, you're theory on the previous page makes sense. It's always been my belief that there was a 3wk break between killing Annie & Kate because of police security increases. After all there was only 8 days separating the Polly & Annie murder. And Annie's wasn't much escalation in regards to the savagery as he had no reason to be frustrated. And if we are to believe he killed MJK, then security would be even tighter after the double murder, forcing Jack to wait it out, but getting impatient, he broke his MO by preying upon a younger woman indoors because she was more vulnerable (asleep and not alert or expecting anyone), and because it would provide privacy--ie, no police wandering around.

And possibly because of the extra long wait between the Eddowes & MJK murders his increasing frustration and fighting off the temptation to kill is what drove him to mutilate MJK so badly. Serial killers are known to behave this way when forced to go into hiatus for an extended period of time, thus justifying facial mutilation to Eddowes after a 3wk wait as opposed to a one week wait. That is assuming it wasn't frustration over NOT mutilating Stride in which I'm perpetuating that if he didn't kill her, then there'd still be a reason to escalate the savagery on Eddowes. Escalation was his game. He mutilated Polly but didn't take anything, nor was she eviscerated. It was the opposite with Annie, and then the same + facial mutilation with Kate. And lastly, all out mutilation on MJK. Always escalating. The first time was practice, as with most serial killers they don't go all the way the first time. Then he did with Annie, but frustration over a 3wk hiatus prompted him to do worse to Eddowes, and a 5.5wk break thereafter prompted him to go all out on MJK. Just a theory I know, but it goes along with most profiles/analyzations on why they escalate. And killing Stride can fit in too, thus adding to the frustration of a 3wk hiatus.

[lynn cates]

one corpse too many

Hello Sly. That's the sensible view.

I desperately want to have Liz in the canon, and sometimes am close to stifling my doubts and moving with the flow.

But I am reminded, then, of one of my favourite Cadfael episodes, "One Corpse too many" where there has been a mass hanging and Brother Cadfael is supposed to prepare the bodies for burial. He is informed that the number of corpses is precisely k, whereas he discovers k + 1 cadavers. He investigates and finds dissimilarities on one of the bodies. His conclusion: someone murdered someone and is trying to dispose of the body in a convenient way.

Food for thought.

Cheers.
LC