September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[c.d.]

I think you think I'm making an argument, when I just made a point for consideration.

I understand that, Tani. My response was directed more toward anybody who wanted to take your point and run with it.

c.d.

[Tani]

If the killer was a local, born and living in Whitechapel, it would be surprising if he would not know the entire area. Growing up in a city environment would lend itself to knowing area by landmarks like Hospitals, cemetaries,churches, and Schools as examples as well as main thoroughfares.As one gets older you likely know the Pubs as well.

I'd be more surprised if he didn't.

But, for the sake of argument, knowing a large area and having a particular area within that place wherein one feels most comfortable might come into play.

I think Stride was killed by the Ripper (tbh I think there's little doubt), but her place on the map is strange to me.

[chubbs]

The killer worked off main thouroughfares which might mean that he traveled these streets with some comfort. When you look at the map it clearly shows this. When you look at Nichols and Stride you see the farthest eastern and southern points of attack from a more concentrated zone. It might indicate that this killer at some point may have targeted his victims from the 3 Doss house areas of Dorset, Flower & Dean and Thrawl Street. To me there seems to be a clear connection. So his hunting area? Possibly close to his home.
When Nichols started to walk in a drunken stupor down Whitechapel did she run into the Ripper or was she followed?
I lean towards her being followed in similar fashion to Stride.
That might explain the where in all cases. It's hard to reconcile the different men seen with Stride between 11am and 1pm by 3 laborers, PC Smith, Brown and Schwartz. It appears that Brown and Scwartz describe the same man with long coat and black felt hat wide brim. The same man Brown heard say to her that " you would say anything but your prayers". Was that a message of things to come for Stride? Did Stride seal her fate when she told the killer " No not tonight maybe some other night?" Was the killer not to be denied but got interrupted only to become more enraged?
This does not match the same man Lawende evidently said he saw with Eddowes roughly 35 minutes later outside of Church Passage. Was Lawende trying to recall or did he describe a different man or simply get it wrong?
There is another possibility here....
What if the killer, as the map illustrates, lived somewhere between Berner Street , Mitre Square and Hanbury Street. The killer, having been seen by Schwartz, Brown and possibly others, still enraged and not finished his last for killing, simply stops home, changes his coat and hat, puts on a red neckerchief, and walks toward St Botolphs frequented by prostitutes. He had to avoid Metro.
Could the killer have done that within 35 minutes?
It seems possible and factoring in rage and adrenaline perhaps more so.
if the killer were smart enough to know he was seen and read the papers he was likely smart enough to change his look. The double event might illustrate this. He was also hiding out in the vicinity before the apron was found.
Wonder if he was inspired by Robert Louis Stevenson?

"So his hunting area. Possibly close to his home." - or close to a safe bolt hole, such as the stable he'd put his horse & cart in?

"When Nichols started to walk in a drunken stupor down Whitechapel..." - Would Polly Nichols have been in a drunken stupor at 3.30am? Not sure about that.

"...simply stops home..." - or the stables. Never overlook the stables. Could he have changed and got to Mitre Square in 35 minutes? If his bolt hole wasn't too far from Goulston Street. 12/15 minutes from Berner Street to his bolt hole and another 5 minutes to Mitre Square - he had enough spare time for a pint and a bag of crisps, the dirty little psychopath.

He murdered and mutilated poor Catherine Eddowes, then he walked to Goulston Street where he discarded the piece of bloodied apron, then continued on the short distance to his... ...bolt hole, until the heat died down a bit? That's what I reckon.

[c.d.]

I'd be more surprised if he didn't.

But, for the sake of argument, knowing a large area and having a particular area within that place wherein one feels most comfortable, might come into play.

I think Stride was killed by the Ripper (tbh I think there's little doubt), but her place on the map is strange to me.

Do you think the B.S. man was the Ripper or do you think that the Ripper came along later and killed her?

c.d.

[Tani]

Do you think the B.S. man was the Ripper or do you think that the Ripper came along later and killed her?

c.d.

I'm honestly not sure. I've gone over it for years and years but there are some things I'm comfortable entertaining and not knowing. Certainly I haven't as much faith in Schwartz as others may.

[chubbs]

No, but I was noting that her location is the odd one out in terms of being on the other side of the main road/high street alongside the other poster noting that Berner Street was not necessarily where you'd go to find a prostitute. It's at least worth pointing out if we're going to debate the DE.

When highlighting the differences between the murder of Elizabeth Stride and the other 'accepted' ripper victims, it's always worth including the question, "Just how many throat-slitting prostitute murderers were there in Whitechapel around October 1888?"
The most likely answer is 'one'.

[Tani]

When highlighting the differences between the murder of Elizabeth Stride and the other 'accepted' ripper victims, it's always worth including the question, "Just how many throat-slitting prostitute murderers were there in Whitechapel around October 1888?"
The most likely answer is 'one'.

The problem is we don't know that.

Mathematics doesn't accurately represent the randomness and chaos of the lived-in world. Mathematically it was unlikely that there were the amount of serial killers in the USA as there were from the 1960s to the 1990s, but there were very many. If we simply take it as a given that there was one maniac with a lust to kill we'd still have to take into account Smith, Coles and the Torso murders. The first two may well be accounted for, but that's not obvious to some folks here. I think they are, but if one accepts they are we see more than one violent killer in the vicinity - certainly with Torso man. That's without including women like Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson and other attack victims around the area. Living in a violent, impoverished, crime ridden area suggests to me that it may well be that there's more than one knife wielding psychopath.

If we also account for murderers like George Chapman, then we know for certain there are other killers out there. The MO may differ but more modern serial killer scholarship has had to rethink the unchanging MO of earlier research because MOs can indeed change. One man who usually prefers poison may have a knife to hand and start feeling a little murdery who knows!

But, again, my point stands - Stride was murdered on the opposite side of the street to nearly all the other victims, canonical and non-canonical, including Millwood. One wonders if there were something about that side of the Whitechapel road that made killing easier; this also seems to be borne out by the rushed, almost botched killing of Stride. The killer seems to feel safer on the one side than the other; there may be more hidey holes there, more side streets, more pubs, whatever it may be, but I think it's worth looking into as to why 99% of murders (not just Ripper's) happen over that side of the road.

It was just an observation.

[Patrick Differ]

The Old Bailey Casebook records from 1881 to 1891 are interesting to look at as they show trends towards more manslaughter convictions then outright murder. It is also during this time that the immigrant waves are hitting the East End. It's a mixed bag between gentile and Jewish incidents. Manslaughter appears to be more domestic than anything else.
Charles Booth shows the demographic in the same timeperiod and the area South of Commercial Road near Berner Street and Fieldgate had experienced the shift towards a Jewish population. Much of it with Jewish radicals who were also, at this time, being attacked by the Pall Mall Gazette and Jewish Chronical. Alien v Briton was very high and contentious.
The other thing Ive noticed through Ancestry is how often people in this area moved. Nichols and Stride for example are in close proximity to London Hospital. Did the killer live in this area at one time? It might also explain his comfort with these areas.
if the killer were local for 30 plus years and like many of its locals looked for a better habitat or situation, it would seem to be a fairly believable explanation. Simply put, he knew Whitechapel because he lived it ?

[chubbs]

The problem is we don't know that.

Mathematics doesn't accurately represent the randomness and chaos of the lived-in world. Mathematically it was unlikely that there were the amount of serial killers in the USA as there were from the 1960s to the 1990s, but there were very many. If we simply take it as a given that there was one maniac with a lust to kill we'd still have to take into account Smith, Coles and the Torso murders. The first two may well be accounted for, but that's not obvious to some folks here. I think they are, but if one accepts they are we see more than one violent killer in the vicinity - certainly with Torso man. That's without including women like Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson and other attack victims around the area. Living in a violent, impoverished, crime ridden area suggests to me that it may well be that there's more than one knife wielding psychopath.

If we also account for murderers like George Chapman, then we know for certain there are other killers out there. The MO may differ but more modern serial killer scholarship has had to rethink the unchanging MO of earlier research because MOs can indeed change. One man who usually prefers poison may have a knife to hand and start feeling a little murdery who knows!

But, again, my point stands - Stride was murdered on the opposite side of the street to nearly all the other victims, canonical and non-canonical, including Millwood. One wonders if there were something about that side of the Whitechapel road that made killing easier; this also seems to be borne out by the rushed, almost botched killing of Stride. The killer seems to feel safer on the one side than the other; there may be more hidey holes there, more side streets, more pubs, whatever it may be, but I think it's worth looking into as to why 99% of murders (not just Ripper's) happen over that side of the road.

It was just an observation.

Comparing murder by a gang and Torso Guy with JtR is comparing eggs with things that aren't eggs. If we can get back to my point - it's not very likely that a second throat-slitting killer was on the prowl in Whitechapel that night.
To suggest that the Whitechapel Road/High St formed a barrier that JtR would not cross in order to commit murder is not tenable. I'll never believe that he imposed such restrictions on himself. If he thought he could get away with it, he'd do it. Additionally, we don't know that the Berner Street area wasn't one of his stomping grounds, just like the areas north of the main road clearly were. If he hawked stuff around the neighbourhood he may well have been as comfortable and familiar with the streets south of Whitechapel Rd as he was with the streets north of it.
To quote you, "MOs can indeed change." - going south of Whitechapel road could be seen as a 'change in MO'. When he got disturbed in Dutfields Yard, he thought, "Sod this, I'll go back North."
I think this 'South of Whitechapel Rd' thing is overhyped by people pretending to be more cleverer than wot they really are.

[Tani]

Comparing murder by a gang and Torso Guy with JtR is comparing eggs with things that aren't eggs. If we can get back to my point - it's not very likely that a second throat-slitting killer was on the prowl in Whitechapel that night.
To suggest that the Whitechapel Road/High St formed a barrier that JtR would not cross in order to commit murder is not tenable. I'll never believe that he imposed such restrictions on himself. If he thought he could get away with it, he'd do it. Additionally, we don't know that the Berner Street area wasn't one of his stomping grounds, just like the areas north of the main road clearly were. If he hawked stuff around the neighbourhood he may well have been as comfortable and familiar with the streets south of Whitechapel Rd as he was with the streets north of it.
To quote you, "MOs can indeed change." - going south of Whitechapel road could be seen as a 'change in MO'. When he got disturbed in Dutfields Yard, he thought, "Sod this, I'll go back North."
I think this 'South of Whitechapel Rd' thing is overhyped by people pretending to be more cleverer than wot they really are.

Sadly you seem to have completely misread me and the point I was trying to make.

[chubbs]

The Old Bailey Casebook records from 1881 to 1891 are interesting to look at as they show trends towards more manslaughter convictions then outright murder. It is also during this time that the immigrant waves are hitting the East End. It's a mixed bag between gentile and Jewish incidents. Manslaughter appears to be more domestic than anything else.
Charles Booth shows the demographic in the same timeperiod and the area South of Commercial Road near Berner Street and Fieldgate had experienced the shift towards a Jewish population. Much of it with Jewish radicals who were also, at this time, being attacked by the Pall Mall Gazette and Jewish Chronical. Alien v Briton was very high and contentious.
The other thing Ive noticed through Ancestry is how often people in this area moved. Nichols and Stride for example are in close proximity to London Hospital. Did the killer live in this area at one time? It might also explain his comfort with these areas.
if the killer were local for 30 plus years and like many of its locals looked for a better habitat or situation, it would seem to be a fairly believable explanation. Simply put, he knew Whitechapel because he lived it ?

Good points here.
However, the JtR Killing Fields were a relatively small area. It wouldn't have taken someone too long in those days (before cars) to develop a good working knowledge of an area that size, especially if he worked there. He didn't have to be born there, or even live there for a long time.

[chubbs]

Sadly you seem to have completely misread me and the point I was trying to make.

Perhaps you should express yourself more clearly then?

[Tani]

Perhaps you should express yourself more clearly then?

I wasn't trying to say that JTR had himself an invisible line he wouldn't cross; I was suggesting that there may have been something about the north of the Whitechapel Road that made serially killing significantly easier, considering over half of the Whitechapel murders (JTR and non-JTR) occurred there. Of those attributed to JTR or hypothesised to be by him, there's only Stride and Ada Wilson south of the Road, with the latter being only just south of the Road. It may have been that there were several factors leading JTR (and possibly those other murderers) to choose the north, such as more pubs, more red light districts, more hidey-holes, lanes and getaway cuts. The other poster mentioned that Berner Street was not a place one would go to find a prostitute, for example. I was opining that this may be why Liz Stride is debated as a JTR victim or if that's why her murder seemed rushed and botched compared to others.

[c.d.]

The other poster mentioned that Berner Street was not a place one would go to find a prostitute, for example.

He might have been there for some other reason and was suddenly taken with the desire to kill.

c.d.

[Tani]

The other poster mentioned that Berner Street was not a place one would go to find a prostitute, for example.

He might have been there for some other reason and was suddenly taken with the desire to kill.

c.d.

Yes, this is somewhat how I'm thinking. It would explain why Stride's murder was rushed and he was possibly seen/exposed.