Cleveland Street Scandal Connection?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs/Sam

Talking of another spooky coincidence regarding identical names but different people, the original article mentioned Charles Hammond as the brothel owner, co-incidentally there is another Charles Hammond who I think is the most likely candidate to be the 'seafarer man' suspect mentioned directly after the Nichols murder. I'll post something on the right thread at some point.

That will be interesting, Mr Mr Lucky. I don't think anyone has identified who the seafaring man was before?

[lynn cates]

Good luck.

Hello Pat. Thanks.

Good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[jerryd]

Hi Lynn Yes slight problem with age in 1881 he was said to be born in 1865 so slightly younger. Could be he was an entertainer for the guests?
The young lad said he was introduced by Thomas Conway didnt he?
Do you know what is known about the said Thomas? I did see he became a female impersonator.
His address was no 2 Cleveland street, do you know what number the scandal was at ?

I did find Catherine Eddowes son in all the census and could not see any connection.
One point, I have known of others that were born c1840s in St George the Martyr and all said they were born in Westminster. I think it covered that area at one time....
Pat

I do see a possible connection Paddy. In the 1891 Census, TC Jr. was living at 19 Parker Street, which happens to be .9 miles from 19 Cleveland Street according to google earth (about a 20 minute walk). A major player in the Cleveland Street Scandal, one Jack Saul, claimed his address, in testimony at the Earnest Parke libel case, was 15 Old Compton Road. This address is .8 miles from 19 Cleveland Street. The distance from TC Jr. to Saul is .5 miles. Saul living to the west. About a 10 minute walk. Incidentally, the distance to Mitre Square from 19 Parker Street is 2.1 miles (43 minute walk).

Jack Saul is a dark character in all this. He was not afraid to expose his homosexuality to anyone. He was a self-proclaimed 'Mary Ann', which is a derogatory term for male prostitute usually dressed in woman's clothing. A transvestite so to speak. He was also involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal and was known by the nickname "Dublin Jack". The Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884 involved very much the same type of important men as Cleveland Street including members of Parliament. It makes me wonder if the two scandals together are part of the reason the RIC, Postmaster General and an MP showed up at Mary Kelly's place.

So, yes, Thomas Conway living on #2 Cleveland Street is an obvious potential candidate for our man, but remember, Herbert Ames was pretty matter of fact that in June of 1888, Thomas Conway was 19 years of age. Not about 19 or looked like 19, he said he was 19. For those reasons I still hold to Kate's son having a possibility of being the connection to Cleveland Street.

[jerryd]

My mistake, 1891 does NOT show young Thomas on Parker Street. I apologize but it does have TC Sr. there. Guess I am done posting til I can read.

[Belloc]

Age

Could be he was an entertainer for the guests?
The young lad said he was introduced by Thomas Conway didnt he?
Do you know what is known about the said Thomas? I did see he became a female impersonator.

The Coventry Times, 10 December, 1890, page 1:



The South London Press, 21 March, 1896, page 2:

[jerryd]

Thank you for posting these clips, Belloc! A step in the right direction. It's exciting to see new information on this subject.

A couple of observations I have about the two separate clips.

If the first one refers to the Empire Theatre in Leicester Square I think this may be the correct Conway. Jack Saul, who was Charles Hammonds right hand man, paraded the area of Leicester Square and lived on Old Compton Street. He also worked in the theatre.

The second clip refers to Southwark which is a regular stomping ground for the Conways before, during and after the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

The problem still remains, however, how do we figure out if the female impersonator is Thomas Conway, the son of Catherine Eddowes? I've tried over the years, to find proof positive, to no avail. Hopefully someone with a higher pay grade than me can figure it out.

Thanks again for this, though. It's encouraging.

jerryd

EDIT: I now see the Empire Theatre was in Coventry.

[The Rookie Detective]

Fascinating thread!

The moment I saw who has contributed to this thread so far, it grabbed my attention, and I must say I find this entire topic very intriguing.


Excited to see where this could go


RD

[Debra A]

Thank you for posting these clips, Belloc! A step in the right direction. It's exciting to see new information on this subject.

A couple of observations I have about the two separate clips.

If the first one refers to the Empire Theatre in Leicester Square I think this may be the correct Conway. Jack Saul, who was Charles Hammonds right hand man, paraded the area of Leicester Square and lived on Old Compton Street. He also worked in the theatre.

The second clip refers to Southwark which is a regular stomping ground for the Conways before, during and after the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

The problem still remains, however, how do we figure out if the female impersonator is Thomas Conway, the son of Catherine Eddowes? I've tried over the years, to find proof positive, to no avail. Hopefully someone with a higher pay grade than me can figure it out.

Thanks again for this, though. It's encouraging.

jerryd

EDIT: I now see the Empire Theatre was in Coventry.

Hi Jerry,
'Tom Conway' seems to have been an extremely talented and popular female impersonator, performing all over London and other parts of the country in the late 90's. It doesn't seem possible that he would be the same lowly 'crossing sweeper' listed living with his father in 1901?

[New Waterloo]

Didnt Eddowes and Conway write musical ballads to sell to people at hangings. Bit grim but does indicate some showman element to their lives. This would take some arranging. Printing of song sheets, writing, composing. Seems in the family. Or have i got this wrong. Any help
NW

[The Rookie Detective]

When you factor in MJK claiming to have a relative in the theatre and her singing to "Blotchy, plus the theatrical appearance of Astrakhan man; albeit based on Hutchinson's viewpoint.

And the appearance of Schwartz.


...it does make me wonder whether there was a theatre and/or family connection between Mary and Kate themselves.

2 victims with an alleged connection to the theatre.



It has always felt there's a theatrical aspect to the Ripper case and perhaps a clue as to the identity of the killer.

Mere conjecture of course; but still worth flushing out IMO


RD

[Belloc]

When you factor in MJK claiming to have a relative in the theatre and her singing to "Blotchy, plus the theatrical appearance of Astrakhan man; albeit based on Hutchinson's viewpoint.

And the appearance of Schwartz.

...it does make me wonder whether there was a theatre and/or family connection between Mary and Kate themselves.

2 victims with an alleged connection to the theatre.

It has always felt there's a theatrical aspect to the Ripper case and perhaps a clue as to the identity of the killer.

Mere conjecture of course; but still worth flushing out IMO

RD

The San Francisco Call and Post, 8 January, 1891, page 8




S.S. Pennland, October 1889 voyage to New York City, passenger list



Passengers 8 and 9:

Mr. C. Boulton, 35, costumier
A. Boulton, 15

Definition of 'costumier':

Someone who designs or supplies costumes (as for a play or masquerade)

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
'Tom Conway' seems to have been an extremely talented and popular female impersonator, performing all over London and other parts of the country in the late 90's. It doesn't seem possible that he would be the same lowly 'crossing sweeper' listed living with his father in 1901?

Based on what we know about TC Jr., I agree with you Debs.

[jerryd]

The San Francisco Call and Post, 8 January, 1891, page 8




S.S. Pennland, October 1889 voyage to New York City, passenger list



Passengers 8 and 9:

Mr. C. Boulton, 35, costumier
A. Boulton, 15

Definition of 'costumier':

Someone who designs or supplies costumes (as for a play or masquerade)

Hi Belloc.

Yes, the name Boulton was an interesting choice. Charles Hammond was listed in one census as a "military braider tailor". So, the choice of costumier makes a little sense. The man I mentioned earlier, Jack Saul, was a professional "Mary Ann" and one time best friend of Charles Hammond. A "Mary Ann" was another name for cross dresser in his circles. Interestingly two young men by the names of Boulton and Park (aka Fanny and Stella) were rather famous cross dressers in the 1870's.

[Belloc]

Charles Hammond, operator of the gay brothel on Cleveland Street, had one child. The boy was shown as 'Marty' in the 1881 England Census, but his real name was Charles Norman Hammond. He and his mother followed Charles senior to the United States. Charles junior became a stage and film actor. This was one of his movies:

[The Rookie Detective]

Charles Hammond, operator of the gay brothel on Cleveland Street, had one child. The boy was shown as 'Marty' in the 1881 England Census, but his real name was Charles Norman Hammond. He and his mother followed Charles senior to the United States. Charles junior became a stage and film actor. This was one of his movies:

Interesting account regarding his wife and child...




Interesting



RD