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Cleveland Street Scandal Connection?

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  • Cleveland Street Scandal Connection?

    Hi everyone,

    After reading this article, http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d...8910108.2.113#, I was of course intrigued by the Thomas Conway reference. Kate Eddowes had a son with her common law husband, Thomas Conway, named Thomas Conway. He was born in 1868 in Westminster. This article referenced Ames saying, In June of 1888, Thomas Conway, a boy of nineteen years of age...... which would fit Kate's son exactly if he were born before June.

    With all this in mind, what importance if any do you all see in this connection? To have a canonical Ripper victim's son tied to such a large scandal that involved many important people of the time as well as our own Inspector Abberline presiding over that case as well. I see so many avenues to think about here if he is indeed Kate's son.(I am researching at this point to get more info on young TC and prove he was)* On a side note, the Cleveland Street brothel had been operating 3 or 4 years prior to the unleashing of the scandal in 1889, meaning the murders in Whitechapel coincided with the Cleveland Street affair.

    To add to this, the 1891 census shows young Conway living down the road from Mitre Square in Southwark with a man named Thomas Kelly, 41 years of age. Now just the name Kelly has me reaching in 8 million different directions but think of all the implications that name has with the Ripper case and Eddowes herself.

    Any thoughts?

  • #2
    Any provable link between Cleveland street and JTR and you may have discovered that 'political hot potato '.Eddowes lived with John Kelly, I think. This could be very interesting
    You can lead a horse to water.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is the 1871 Census and birth date of Catherine's son Thomas Conway. Interesting that the first two children, the third was George, were named after their parents. I believe the daughter testified at her inquest by the name of Annie.

      Still trying to get a copy of his Birth record to see what month he was born in. He seems to have stayed in this general area, St George The Martyr, most of his life. I did also find a marriage record in 1905 for Thomas Conway with a fathers name on the record also Thomas Conway which could possibly be this man if he got married at 37 years of age and you'll never guess the name of his wife. Yep....Mary Ann Kelly.

      **Please note, these are not facts or implications of fact about this man at this point. The only fact right now is, he was born to Catherine Eddowes and Thomas Conway and could possibly be involved with Cleveland Street. That's it.





      Name: Thomas Conway
      Event Type: Census
      Event Date: 1871
      Gender: Male
      Age: 3
      Relationship to Head of Household: Son
      Birthplace: Westminster, Middlesex
      Schedule Type: Household
      Registration District: St Saviour Southwark
      Sub-District: Borough Road
      Parish: St George The Martyr
      County: London, Surrey


      Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
      Thomas Conway Self M 36 Mayo, Ireland
      Catherine Conway Wife F 28 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
      Catherine M ConwayDaughterF 7 Yarmouth, Norfolk
      Thomas Conway Son M 3 Westminster, Middlesex


      For the heck of it, here is that marriage record.

      Name: Thomas Conway
      Event Type: Marriage
      Event Date: 07 Jan 1905
      Event Place: St. Joseph's, Stockport, Cheshire, England
      Gender: Male
      Age:
      Marital Status: S
      Death Date:
      Father's Name: Thomas Conway
      Mother's Name:
      Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Kelly
      Page:
      GS Film number: 2068243
      Digital Folder Number: 004304362
      Image Number: 00783


      It shows another person on the record by the name of Charles Kelly. Doesn't give a relationship.


      jerryd

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jerryd View Post
        Hi everyone,

        After reading this article, http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d...8910108.2.113#, I was of course intrigued by the Thomas Conway reference. Kate Eddowes had a son with her common law husband, Thomas Conway, named Thomas Conway. He was born in 1868 in Westminster. This article referenced Ames saying, In June of 1888, Thomas Conway, a boy of nineteen years of age...... which would fit Kate's son exactly if he were born before June.

        With all this in mind, what importance if any do you all see in this connection? To have a canonical Ripper victim's son tied to such a large scandal that involved many important people of the time as well as our own Inspector Abberline presiding over that case as well. I see so many avenues to think about here if he is indeed Kate's son.(I am researching at this point to get more info on young TC and prove he was)* On a side note, the Cleveland Street brothel had been operating 3 or 4 years prior to the unleashing of the scandal in 1889, meaning the murders in Whitechapel coincided with the Cleveland Street affair.

        To add to this, the 1891 census shows young Conway living down the road from Mitre Square in Southwark with a man named Thomas Kelly, 41 years of age. Now just the name Kelly has me reaching in 8 million different directions but think of all the implications that name has with the Ripper case and Eddowes herself.

        Any thoughts?
        Certainly interesting if it can be linked to Catherine's son, but Thomas Conway doesn't seem a terribly uncommon name.
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

        Comment


        • #5
          Agreed GUT. But to have one the exact age in the right area of London narrows it down a little bit. According to the Census reports, Thomas Jr. lived on his own sometime after the 1881 Census when he was thirteen. We know he was away from father in 1891 and living in Southwark with Thomas Kelly.

          Also interesting about the Cleveland Street Scandal is the young boys were telegraph boys. Hired not only for sex with the aristocrats, but running letters and correspondence as well. (authentic Ripper letters come to mind, if any are authentic) They worked for the Post Office in addition to Charles Hammond.

          I can remember off the top of my head two murders that had a Post Office robbery I believe the same night, Eddowes being one and I think Nichols the other? Also rumor of the Postmaster General being present at Miller's Court for Mary Kelly. Are these major coincidences? Possibly, but having two major crimes coinciding at the same time, with high level London men involved and telegraph boys doing all the dirty work makes me wonder if these two affairs can somehow be linked and because of the people involved, could certainly be covered up.

          But I digress, let's see if we can collectively prove that this was Kate's son. Then we might be onto bigger and better things.
          Last edited by jerryd; 07-10-2014, 12:15 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            G'day JerryD

            Sorry wasn't trying to downgrade it, it has great potential if it can be proven to be the right family.

            Interesting that the article implies that the boy didn't know, at first, what the place was about so he was probably a "runner" of some type.
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #7
              Kelly

              Hello Jerry. Interesting find.

              Odd that Kate gave the name "Mary Ann Kelly" when arrested.

              Cheers.
              LC

              Comment


              • #8
                G'day Lynn

                Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                Hello Jerry. Interesting find.

                Odd that Kate gave the name "Mary Ann Kelly" when arrested.

                Cheers.
                LC
                I noticed that but some 17 years after Kate's murder seems more likely to be a coincidence, unless Mary Ann Kelly was in some way related to John Kelly.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  When I first read it I thought it was saying Mar Ann Kelly was his mother and thought oh boy? but then realised I can't read.
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    known

                    Hello GUT. Thanks.

                    Unless, of course, it were someone he had known for quite some time.

                    Cheers.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      G'day Lynn

                      If you mean that the "Son" had known for some time I considered that, but discounted it because of how young he would have been when his dad and Kate separated, I would say possible but unlikely.
                      G U T

                      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mary Ann Kelly

                        Hello GUT. Thanks.

                        Some time ago, I found a Mary Ann Kelly not too far from John and Kate. Not very informative, however.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          record

                          Hello Jerry. Just found a family tree in which the son died in 1903, the father, in 1908.

                          Thoughts?

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GUT View Post
                            Certainly interesting if it can be linked to Catherine's son, but Thomas Conway doesn't seem a terribly uncommon name.
                            Rather more common than I'd have thought, GUT. Here's a Familysearch sample of Thomas Conways born in England in 1868:

                            Thomas Conway, 1 March 1868, North Shields, Northumberland
                            Thomas Devas Conway, 13 May 1868, Wimbledon, Surrey
                            Thomas Conway, 9 Aug 1868, Kelloe, Durham
                            Thomas Conway, 22 Mar 1868, Neston, Cheshire

                            I've only included those whose entries include days of birth. There are many more whose entries only give the place and year of birth, but I've left them out. Hopping across the sea to Ireland, we find loads of entries for 1868 Thomas Conways, in the following towns:

                            Sligo; Kilmacthomas; Newport; Cashel; Ballymena; Westport; Ennistimmon; Antrim; Mayo (DOB: 11 Jun 1868); Mayo (DOB: 23 Nov 1868); Mayo (DOB: 10 Dec 1868); Waterford; Longford; Kilpatrick; Tipperary.

                            Note there are three TC's born in Mayo that year. I've also found American and Australian TC's born in 1868. Looking a year either side - i.e. 1867 and 1869 - we find a similar pattern. Who'd a thunk that "Thomas Conway" would be such a popular name? Not me, until just now
                            Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-10-2014, 07:06 AM. Reason: formatting
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here is a quick Timeline:

                              Born: 1868- Westminster (to Thomas Conway and Catherine Conway)
                              1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
                              1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
                              1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
                              1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

                              I am starting to think that TC Sr. may have had an alias of Thomas Kelly or the Census got his name wrong in 1891. I say this because Jr. seems to not stray too far for his dad his entire life and the entry with him living with Thomas Kelly is the same location of where he lived with Kate and Sr. as a child. Also, I find it interesting that Eddowes went by the name of Mary Ann Kelly. Did she assume the Kelly name when she was with John Kelly or before that? And last, at the inquest I remember someone questioning daughter Annie about the pension of Thomas Conway. They thought someone might be using his name to collect the pension. That struck me as odd.

                              So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

                              LC, If you are referring to how that plays into the marriage of Mary Ann. I never put much if any weight into that being a reality. It would have been an interesting addition though.

                              Sam, Lots of Thomas Conways but only one that had a Ripper victim as a mother.
                              Last edited by jerryd; 07-10-2014, 11:10 AM.

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