Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[Abby Normal]

What makes the hat correct?

the peak. you know that by now i hope

[GBinOz]

If the Ripper and Eddowes entered the square as soon as Watkins left, there would have been sufficient time to commit the murder and mutilations and still encounter Watkins in the Orange Market square. We don't know if Watkins went down Sugar Bakers Yard before entering the Orange Market square, or if he stopped to chat with the firemen in the hut before walking over to the St. James passage (shades of the Stephen White story). Seven minutes would have been plenty of time between the murder and the possible encounter.

Hi Scott,

I was thinking that encountering the man in the Orange Market square after 7 minutes doesn't leave much time to finish the beat, but Langdon states "Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously - the policeman entered it again, and started to walk round it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner. It was a woman lying dead", so this adds up to the 14 minute beat. It also fits quite well with the watchboy story.

There is a similarity with the Stephen White story, in that White said that he "stood aside to let the man pass", and it fits with "at the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman" and being "just behind the Whitechapel Road". However, "a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road" also fits Castle Alley and McKenzie, although that was not a cul-de-sac. White's description of the man puts me in mind of Francis Thompson. In the end, neither locations fit the description of "could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding".

Cheers, George

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

And that conclusion opens the door for the statement by Blenkingsop, and those people he saw in St. James Place.

Can you see how that conclusion was reached?

I cannot.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

But Nichols, Stride, Eddowes, even Tabram & Coles for that matter all wore black bonnets - must have been very common don't you think, maybe even as common as flat peaked caps for men?

But Chapman, Kelly, McKenzie, and Mylett were not wearing bonnets of any colour.

[Wickerman]

...
As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

And that conclusion opens the door for the statement by Blenkingsop, and those people he saw in St. James Place.
Was it a couple, and were they headed towards St. James Passage?
The journalist felt the sighting was important, I think, because they were headed towards the passage, I suspect that detail was left out for want of space.
Sometimes when we try to be brief in a comment we leave out a pertinent bit because it was so obvious, that could be the case here.

[Wickerman]

You are right, but my point about the bonnets is still valid.

But Nichols, Stride, Eddowes, even Tabram & Coles for that matter all wore black bonnets - must have been very common don't you think, maybe even as common as flat peaked caps for men?

[Wickerman]

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

My anecdotal contribution is to say that in the early 70's (70-72?) I was at Mitre Square at 1:00 on a Sunday morning, mainly to get the experience of the place at that hour.
I theorized the killer should hear PC Harvey coming down Church Passage, so I stood on the spot where the body was and my friend walked down Church Passage from Duke St., and yes from about half-way down his footsteps could be heard across the square.
I think the killer had time to get out of the square before Harvey reached the end of the passage.
The thing that didn't occur to me at the time was if Harvey could have heard fleeing footsteps from his position in the lower half of the passage.

When I was there the square was not the total echo chamber, the houses behind where the body was found, those that faced Mitre Street, had been torn down.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Abby was talking about the hat the man wore - the peaked cap.

You are right, but my point about the bonnets is still valid.

[Wickerman]

Both Eddowes and the woman seen by Lawende wore black bonnets.

Abby was talking about the hat the man wore - the peaked cap.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Seven minutes would have been plenty of time between the murder and the possible encounter.

Langdon made it clear that nothing like seven minutes had elapsed between Watkins' leaving the square and his alleged encounter with the supposed murderer.

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott,

While I regard this as a viable alternative, the reservation I have with this hypothesis is that on the night in question Watkins was patrolling a left hand beat. This means that after he left Mitre Sq he walked up Mitre St, turned right into King St and thence to St James Place. This doesn't appear to leave sufficient time for Jack to have accomplished his task and be making his escape. I'd appreciate your comment.

Watkins beat shown here:

https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPMy6zMo=/

Cheers, George

If the Ripper and Eddowes entered the square as soon as Watkins left, there would have been sufficient time to commit the murder and mutilations and still encounter Watkins in the Orange Market square. We don't know if Watkins went down Sugar Bakers Yard before entering the Orange Market square, or if he stopped to chat with the firemen in the hut before walking over to the St. James passage (shades of the Stephen White story). Seven minutes would have been plenty of time between the murder and the possible encounter.

[Trevor Marriott]

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

If the killer was still with Eddowes when Harvey came down Church Passage shining his lamp the killer would have seen him coming and would have had time to make his exit via Mitre Street long before Harvey had any chance of seeing him.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I think Lawende did see Eddowes and the murderer and that the murderer left the square when he sensed Harvey approaching.

I do not see why the murderer, if he was the man seen by Lawende, would have had to stay put.

I do not see why, if the murderer left on sensing Harvey's approach, he could not have been the man seen by Lawende.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Why does the fact that Mitre Street was the closest exit to the scene of the murder preclude the woman seen by Lawende having been Eddowes?

We're weighing up options, nothing is impossible nor precludes anything. It's a case of which of the options is most likely.

In the event you believe that Lawende and associates saw Catherine, then you have to believe that when PC Harvey walked down Church Passage the WM decided to stay put.

That would not be in line with researched human behaviour and known concepts such as the principle of least effort which govern all human actions.

As I said, that makes my starting point this: the WM left when PC Harvey walked down, which of course means that Lawende's couple couldn't have been Catherine.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What makes the hat correct?

Both Eddowes and the woman seen by Lawende wore black bonnets.