Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Maybe he was walking with a shuffle with his hands in his pockets and head down ...

That does not seem like the gait of someone like Stride's assailant, who was behaving violently both physically and verbally.

It seems more like the way Kosminski would have behaved.

[Sunny Delight]

Given that Schwartz does not say he was in hearing distance, sufficient to hear slurred speech - for example.
How else would someone get the impression the person walking ahead of them was "partially intoxicated", if not by the way they are walking?

As we can't examine Schwartz on this point it is impossible to say how he reached the conclusion the man was partially intoxicated. It must be seen as significant that as far as we know he did not furnish the Police with the information, but rather the newspapers.

Hyperbolic language like 'staggering around' does illicit a view that this man was as they say here in Ireland 'well oiled'. We don't know why Schwartz felt he was just partially intoxicated. Maybe he was walking with a shuffle with his hands in his pockets and head down like someone who has had a few drinks. I don't know. Only Schwartz knew why he felt that way and more importantly only he knows why he didn't tell the Police such information.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Scott,

I was thinking that encountering the man in the Orange Market square after 7 minutes doesn't leave much time to finish the beat, but Langdon states "Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously - the policeman entered it again, and started to walk round it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner. It was a woman lying dead", so this adds up to the 14 minute beat. It also fits quite well with the watchboy story.

There is a similarity with the Stephen White story, in that White said that he "stood aside to let the man pass", and it fits with "at the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman" and being "just behind the Whitechapel Road". However, "a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road" also fits Castle Alley and McKenzie, although that was not a cul-de-sac. White's description of the man puts me in mind of Francis Thompson. In the end, neither locations fit the description of "could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding".

Cheers, George

I cannot for the life of me reconcile the Stephen White story with Mitre Square.

At a push, you could argue that White meant that they were watching a passage (translated into an alley at some point) and the only entry into that passage from where they were watching, was the entrance near where they were. Aye, a bit of artistic licence there, but it's the only part of the story that you could make an outside chance case for.

Clearly, it wasn't just off the Whitechapel Road and nor could Mitre Square be mistaken for a cul-de-sac.

On the other hand, Castle Alley was in fact an alley and it was just off the WR. You could make a case that over time it was translated into a cul-de-sac because cul-de-sacs were widely associated with poverty and crime, i.e. the exact details of the alley had not been written down and it was imagined it was a cul-de-sac due to the reputation of such places.

Then again, July wouldn't include 'a bitter cold night'. Would any of the nights of the murders constitute 'a bitter cold night'?

Frances Coles' murder was the coldest night. Swallow Gardens was an alley.

And, White's man had snow white hands and long tapering fingers. 'No blood to be seen and that would suggest it was one of the murders without significant mutilation.

Either way, we only know the author as: "A Scotland Yard Man", there's no corroboration of the report and it doesn't tally with any of the murders.

Unfortunately, you'd have to say this article has little value.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thanks so much, FM.

As I suspected, Lawende meant that he looked at his pocket watch at 1.30 a.m.

It seems that his timing of 1.35 was an estimate, which means it is no more reliable than Levy's estimate of 1.33 or 1.34.

The fact that Lawende checked his watch and its time matched that of the club clock does suggest that clocks and watches did not disagree to the extent some have suggested.

If Lawende had set his watch to agree with the club clock, why would he have bothered to look at it?

It certainly is an estimate, PI.

Joseph Lawende was confident it was 1.30am when he rose to leave.

The time it took the two Josephs to get near Church Passage is another matter. You could quite easily mistake five minutes for something less or something more.

The problem is, there's nothing concrete to hang onto except their estimate of the time it took to get near Church Passage. Arguing anything else, is unsupported speculation driven by an inconvenient time and I don't think that's of much value (outside of speculating that is).

[Fleetwood Mac]

For two pretty fleeting views of someone these descriptions are remarkably similar.

I would tend to agree that the descriptions do not warrant ruling out that they were the same man.

I'd expect Schwartz to be closer to the mark given this was an incident that demanded his attention, i.e. it was a perceived threat to him.

Outside of that, witness descriptions, when they have no reason to take a great deal of notice, should be taken with a degree of healthy scepticism.

We have an example to go off here: the two Josephs gave what I would call a significant height discrepancy and they saw the same man. 'Nothing suspicious in that, simply the nature of witnesses who walk by someone and are asked to recollect it at a later point.

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott,

I was thinking that encountering the man in the Orange Market square after 7 minutes doesn't leave much time to finish the beat, but Langdon states "Presently - exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously - the policeman entered it again, and started to walk round it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner. It was a woman lying dead", so this adds up to the 14 minute beat. It also fits quite well with the watchboy story.

There is a similarity with the Stephen White story, in that White said that he "stood aside to let the man pass", and it fits with "at the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman" and being "just behind the Whitechapel Road". However, "a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road" also fits Castle Alley and McKenzie, although that was not a cul-de-sac. White's description of the man puts me in mind of Francis Thompson. In the end, neither locations fit the description of "could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding".

Cheers, George

Hi George,

The description of the 7 minutes isn't written very clearly in the Langdon piece, but another account commenting on the story (don't have it on hand) clarified that a calculation was done from the spot of the sighting to demonstrate another 7 minutes elapsed to make the rest of the round back into Mitre Square, which does seem a bit too fast.

These glimpses of the Mitre Square murder may have come from city police reports that were destroyed and later commentators were going from memory, so while some parts of the story seem to fit, others do not. As to why Watkins didn't report this encounter (if it happened) at the inquest, I don't know.

[Wickerman]

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

Given that Schwartz does not say he was in hearing distance, sufficient to hear slurred speech - for example.
How else would someone get the impression the person walking ahead of them was "partially intoxicated", if not by the way they are walking?

[Wickerman]

According to the newspaper report, Schwartz said that the suspect was

walking as if partially intoxicated

Sorry, I missed your reply.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

If he had been completely intoxicated, he would hardly have been able to stand.

As he was only partially intoxicated, he was staggering about, but still on his feet.

Lawende did not report that his suspect was swaying at all.

[Sunny Delight]

My bad, of course it was "... a man walking as if partially intoxicated..."

Can't imagine what I was thinking....

Hmm how does one define partially intoxicated? My view is 'staggering around' is hyperbolic language designed to illicit the view that BS man was basically hammered. I don't imagine partially intoxicated gives such an impression.

[Wickerman]

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

My bad, of course it was "... a man walking as if partially intoxicated..."

Can't imagine what I was thinking....

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

According to the newspaper report, Schwartz said that the suspect was

walking as if partially intoxicated


According to the Collins English Dictionary:

If you stagger, you walk very unsteadily, for example because you are ill or drunk.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I take your points about similarities between the two suspects, Sunny, but the colours are all wrong!

Schwartz's suspect has a dark jacket, dark cap and dark hair.

Lawende's suspect has a pepper and salt jacket, grey cap and fair hair.

Schwartz's suspect is not only stout and broad shouldered but has a full face.

Lawende's is of medium build and is wearing a reddish neckerchief, neckerchiefs being commonly worn by sailors, and he is described as having the appearance of a rough sailor.

There is not much to suggest that Schwartz's suspect had such an appearance.

[Sunny Delight]

Yes, and lets not forget the BS-man in Berner St. was staggering around, as if drunk. Yet theorists have him sobering up enough to stagger across to Mitre Square and make a surgical extraction that would put a skilled surgeon to shame.
Really?

Can you provide the evidence that BS man was 'staggering around drunk'.? Schwartz never used that term.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes, and lets not forget the BS-man in Berner St. was staggering around, as if drunk. Yet theorists have him sobering up enough to stagger across to Mitre Square and make a surgical extraction that would put a skilled surgeon to shame.
Really?

There is also the question of how he would have changed his dark jacket into a pepper and salt jacket, and where he would have acquired a reddish neckerchief after one in the morning.