Did Lawende see Kate Eddowes?

[Michael W Richards]

Even if Lawende had been sure in his own mind that it was the murdered woman he saw chatting with the man, he could not have been certain that this was the same man who went on to commit the murder. For all he knew, the man could have left Eddowes unharmed and her killer could have jumped out of the shadows and taken the opportunity to pounce. Maybe this made him reluctant to say he would recognise the man again, and one can see why he wouldn't want the man hanged on his account, Jewish or not.

We have similar situations with Chapman and Stride, where the last man allegedly seen with each victim need not have been the man who killed them. The killer could have been following, watching and waiting in the wings, with the aim of striking as soon as the woman was alone and any witnesses had departed.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz,

IF Lawende did in fact see Kate at the approximate time he claimed, and Watkins was correct about his 1:43-1:44am re-entering of Mitre Square, then its highly unlikely Kate met someone else after Sailor Man to be killed by. The timing doesnt allow for multiple meetings, hell...it barely allows for enough time to get her to the spot where she is murdered and still accomplish all that was done to her before fleeing before Watkins arrives.

Just like in the case of BSM, IF that story wasnt altered or fabricated, then BSM must be considered the primary suspect in Liz Strides death. The timing dictates those conclusions.

Cheers

[Trevor Marriott]

Even if Lawende had been sure in his own mind that it was the murdered woman he saw chatting with the man, he could not have been certain that this was the same man who went on to commit the murder. For all he knew, the man could have left Eddowes unharmed and her killer could have jumped out of the shadows and taken the opportunity to pounce. Maybe this made him reluctant to say he would recognise the man again, and one can see why he wouldn't want the man hanged on his account, Jewish or not.

We have similar situations with Chapman and Stride, where the last man allegedly seen with each victim need not have been the man who killed them. The killer could have been following, watching and waiting in the wings, with the aim of striking as soon as the woman was alone and any witnesses had departed.

Love,

Caz
X

On that basis how do you explain how they finished up in the murder location ?

The victim must have walked on her own steam to that location.

Of course the other point to consider which no one seems to have, is that the killer and Eddowes entered the square from one of the other two entrances.

But of course the timings are really not in dispute in my opinion as there is corroboration from other witnesses,

[Phil Carter]

Of course if that be the case then they would have been talking which would have been heard in the square. Would the killer have risked carrying out the murder with known persons in close proximity especially if the door was ajar and a light on perhaps the killer would have been able to see the police man if that had been the case.

Two sides to every argument !

Hello Trevor,

Providing the killer was IN the square at that time, yes.
He could have been sheltering from the rain somewhere as well. haha! ;-)


Phil

[Phil Carter]

As you say, it is indeed entirely speculation on my part but yes,
I am indeed suggesting that Watkins may have been sheltering from the rain with ex-Pc George Morris at Kearley & Tonge. I don't think that's an original thought, but it is, to my mind, a plausible possibility.

Hello Colin,

Yes, I agree. Plausible. But not just Watkins... espescially as we know it was raining at 1.30. That involves two policemen and their beats in reality, does it not?

Phil

[Phil Carter]

The killer could have been following, watching and waiting in the wings, with the aim of striking as soon as the woman was alone and any witnesses had departed.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caroline,

Or the killer could already have been IN the square waiting in the dark corner.

Which brings us back to each policeman and his beat. And sheltering from the rain...at 1.30 it was raining....


Phil

[Phil Carter]

It doesn't... if Lawende did see Kate Eddowes with her killer.
Apparently, some people haven't thought that one out.

Hello Hunter,

IF... that is the question Michael asked at the start..IF Lawende DIDN'T see Kate Eddowes with her killer... THEN it makes a whole lot of difference.

Because we don't know how long Watkins or ANY policeman WASN'T on duty when they testified IF they were having a shelter from the rain..hence.. all timings are....?

Well you work it out.

That leaves us with the timings of the TWO doctors, which, when worked out, provide different possible earliest times of death.

Mind you some, if believed said that Watkins blew the whistle, not the nightwatchman. Now why would that have been said? Presumption or assumption that it was Watkins?


Phil

[caz]

Even if Lawende had been sure in his own mind that it was the murdered woman he saw chatting with the man, he could not have been certain that this was the same man who went on to commit the murder. For all he knew, the man could have left Eddowes unharmed and her killer could have jumped out of the shadows and taken the opportunity to pounce. Maybe this made him reluctant to say he would recognise the man again, and one can see why he wouldn't want the man hanged on his account, Jewish or not.

We have similar situations with Chapman and Stride, where the last man allegedly seen with each victim need not have been the man who killed them. The killer could have been following, watching and waiting in the wings, with the aim of striking as soon as the woman was alone and any witnesses had departed.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Speculation of course... but the title of your posting may well be the answer to the riddle of the Mitre Square problem over times and timings?

Is there a problem over times and timings ?

[Hunter]

It doesn't... if Lawende did see Kate Eddowes with her killer.
Apparently, some people haven't thought that one out.

[Wickerman]

Even if Watkins was having a sly cuppa' with his friend, his story only starts when the body is noticed at 1:44 am. This is the end of the time window.
Lawende provides the start of the time window.

I'm not seeing why it matters what Watkins was doing before he discovered the body.

[Trevor Marriott]

As you say, it is indeed entirely speculation on my part but yes,
I am indeed suggesting that Watkins may have been sheltering from the rain with ex-Pc George Morris at Kearley & Tonge. I don't think that's an original thought, but it is, to my mind, a plausible possibility.

Of course if that be the case then they would have been talking which would have been heard in the square. Would the killer have risked carrying out the murder with known persons in close proximity especially if the door was ajar and a light on perhaps the killer would have been able to see the police man if that had been the case.

Two sides to every argument !

[Bridewell]

Hello Colin,

Am I correct here in thinking that you believe that certain policemen, on duty that night, were also sheltering from the rain?

If so, I have one question.

Where could Watkins be sheltering?

I have a loose suggestion.

With a certain nightwatchman, having a cuppa..or such like.

Because when one thinks over it, it might actually explain quite a lot of things...especially the oddity that the nightwatchman failed to hear Watkins enter the square that night, yet on every other night he heard a policeman's footsteps. It might also help to explain the "break time" Watkins normally took whilst at work..but didn't that night.

Speculation of course... but the title of your posting may well be the answer to the riddle of the Mitre Square problem over times and timings?
(A good policeman never gets wet)

What do you think Colin?



Phil

As you say, it is indeed entirely speculation on my part but yes,
I am indeed suggesting that Watkins may have been sheltering from the rain with ex-Pc George Morris at Kearley & Tonge. I don't think that's an original thought, but it is, to my mind, a plausible possibility.

[Phil Carter]

Very much so. We know that Messrs Lawende, Levy & Harris were late leaving their club because they were sheltering from the rain. I don't see it as unlikely that others, perhaps even Eddowes herself, were doing the same.

Hello Colin,

Am I correct here in thinking that you believe that certain policemen, on duty that night, were also sheltering from the rain?

If so, I have one question.

Where could Watkins be sheltering?

I have a loose suggestion.

With a certain nightwatchman, having a cuppa..or such like.

Because when one thinks over it, it might actually explain quite a lot of things...especially the oddity that the nightwatchman failed to hear Watkins enter the square that night, yet on every other night he heard a policeman's footsteps. It might also help to explain the "break time" Watkins normally took whilst at work..but didn't that night.

Speculation of course... but the title of your posting may well be the answer to the riddle of the Mitre Square problem over times and timings?
(A good policeman never gets wet)

What do you think Colin?



Phil

[Bridewell]

A Good Policeman Never Gets Wet

I think much of this depends on the veracity of PC Watkins myself, and PC Harvey.

Very much so. We know that Messrs Lawende, Levy & Harris were late leaving their club because they were sheltering from the rain. I don't see it as unlikely that others, perhaps even Eddowes herself, were doing the same.

[Haskins]

I think there is a decent chance that Lawrende was mistaken because the encounter:

1. was relatively brief,
2. it was dark,
3. the couple were some 15 or 16 feet away
4. and because witness testimony is notoriously unreliable

It is very possible that Lawrende saw a woman other than Eddowes. If so and, if she were a prostitute with client, then it is unlikely that either would have come forward.

Lawrende may also have been exaggerating although he does seem to have been respected and his veracity was not questioned at the time.