From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Curious Cat]

It has crossed my mind that the graffiti may have been dictated. That someone told another person to write it which is why it seems a strange sentence to begin with. The writer garbled what they were told to write.

DC Halse and PC Long wrote it down in different ways despite the text on the wall being the same for both.

How many people would have actually seen the writing in situ between PC Long's discovery and it being washed away?

[spyglass]

Have you tried to write with a piece of common stick-chalk like used on a blackboard?
To write letters 3/4 inch tall with a stick of chalk is almost impossible, by the time you are on your 4th/5th letter it's just a smudge of chalk, no letter is discernible even on a smooth surface. You would have to use the edge of the stick and keep rolling it as you write.

I've long expected there is an error here, perhaps Halse said 3 to 4 inch not 3/4 of an inch?
I just can't see how a press reporter could mistake the verbal "three to four" for "three-quarters", unless it is a error by the press editor who simply read the notes of the journalist and misread a "-" (dash) for a "/" ?
I'm more inclined to think this is nearer the truth.

I have to agree that writing in chalk especially small is very difficult...I have tried it.
Also I get the impression but dont know for certain that the brickwork possibly had a gloss covering.
If so this would make it even harder.
But the other problem here is that the actual wall / jam was quite narrow, If the letters were 3 -4 inches high I would have imagined the message would have covered at least a more number of lines, or the words really bunched up together and thus possibly being misread.

Regards

[Indian Harry]

I have to agree that writing in chalk especially small is very difficult...I have tried it.
Also I get the impression but dont know for certain that the brickwork possibly had a gloss covering.
If so this would make it even harder.
But the other problem here is that the actual wall / jam was quite narrow, If the letters were 3 -4 inches high I would have imagined the message would have covered at least a more number of lines, or the words really bunched up together and thus possibly being misread.

Regards

Are we then looking at a different kind of chalk? One with a finer point.

[Curious Cat]

3-4 inches is quite large and would require an equally large width for each letter as well as the necessary gap between each word. The graffiti was never described as being large as far as I've seen.

3/4 of an inch seems a reasonable size and for the space it was found. A pointed small pebble/marble size piece of chalk pinched between the thumb and index/middle finger could easily do the job. It's not mentioned that the writing was smudged so that may suggest the writer was right handed.

[Wickerman]

3-4 inches is quite large and would require an equally large width for each letter as well as the necessary gap between each word. The graffiti was never described as being large as far as I've seen.

3/4 of an inch seems a reasonable size and for the space it was found. A pointed small pebble/marble size piece of chalk pinched between the thumb and index/middle finger could easily do the job. It's not mentioned that the writing was smudged so that may suggest the writer was right handed.

I don't disagree, it's just that a number of posters tend to think the killer was claiming to be upset or blaming others for what he 'had to do', which would be consistent with larger writing intended to catch the attention of passer-bye. Yet we are told the graffiti was small, more consistent with a whisper than a shout.
Naturally, if the graffiti & the apron are unrelated then the inconsistency disappears - which is more in line with my view.
In suggesting an agency editor made a mistake I am offering a devils-advocate position to those posters who think the two pieces of evidence are connected.
Murderers often take a defensive argument and claim "I had to do it because...", or "it wasn't my fault because..."..etc. So it is not unreasonable to see them as connected, yet I feel the stated size is a problem for their argument. So I am suggesting perhaps there was an error in the transcription of what was said at the inquiry?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I agree that it is unlikely that the apron was used to wipe blood for the same reasons that you detail. Did he use it to transport organs? To risk this act he must have really wanted them. Then what did he do with the organs after he discarded the apron at Goulston St.



Cheers, George

Are you assuming that he still had the organs with him when he left the apron in Goulston Street?

The apron was not spotted until about an hour after the murder was committed.

[spyglass]

I don't disagree, it's just that a number of posters tend to think the killer was claiming to be upset or blaming others for what he 'had to do', which would be consistent with larger writing intended to catch the attention of passer-bye. Yet we are told the graffiti was small, more consistent with a whisper than a shout.
Naturally, if the graffiti & the apron are unrelated then the inconsistency disappears - which is more in line with my view.
In suggesting an agency editor made a mistake I am offering a devils-advocate position to those posters who think the two pieces of evidence are connected.
Murderers often take a defensive argument and claim "I had to do it because...", or "it wasn't my fault because..."..etc. So it is not unreasonable to see them as connected, yet I feel the stated size is a problem for their argument. So I am suggesting perhaps there was an error in the transcription of what was said at the inquiry?

" More consistent with a whisper than a shout"
Never the less it was still a message aimed at someone/someones and to be read, whether by the killer or not.

Some people argue why were there not messages left at other sites?
Well maybe there were, it's just the Police didnt see or look, and so the killer wanted to make sure this time.

Regards

[Wickerman]

" More consistent with a whisper than a shout"
Never the less it was still a message aimed at someone/someones and to be read, whether by the killer or not.

Yes, it's not consistent with a person who chooses to leave a body out in the open with abdomen exposed - shock value? Then scribbles a 'discreet' message, so small as if not wanting to upset any of the locals. The two don't match.

Some people argue why were there not messages left at other sites?
Well maybe there were, it's just the Police didnt see or look, and so the killer wanted to make sure this time.

Regards

I think theorists are referring to the Kelly murder, which took place later, and being inside he had all the time he needed to write anything he wanted on four walls. Yet, no-one mentions anything, not only at the time but for years after, as that room was rented to other occupants. Any one of which could have gone to police or press and pointed out some obscure message not reported in the press at the time of the murder.

[Wickerman]

Are we then looking at a different kind of chalk? One with a finer point.

Have you seen a stick of chalk with a point? This is the Victorian era, there are all kinds of fancy chalk available today, but not then.
Applying any pressure to a pointed stick of chalk would snap the point off, chalk made for writing is what we see/saw in schools.
Tailors chalk, made for drawing thin lines is made flat like a disk for strength. You can't write on a wall with that.

[Indian Harry]

Have you seen a stick of chalk with a point? This is the Victorian era, there are all kinds of fancy chalk available today, but not then.
Applying any pressure to a pointed stick of chalk would snap the point off, chalk made for writing is what we see/saw in schools.
Tailors chalk, made for drawing thin lines is made flat like a disk for strength. You can't write on a wall with that.

There is another possibility. While I pondered this whole small writing with chalk conundrum I recalled seeing little slate blackboards in period movies. Back in the day it wasn't uncommon for students to have their own personal slate blackboard to use at school. I guess paper was less expendable in those days. Anyway these slate blackboards would certainly benefit from a fine pointed type of chalk especially if the children were to learn their letters. By googling I found out that there is something called a slate pencil which seems to be a type of chalk. If you look at the image in the following Wikipedia article you will see that someone managed to produce some very fine a thin lettering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_...riting%20slate.

[GBinOz]

Are you assuming that he still had the organs with him when he left the apron in Goulston Street?

The apron was not spotted until about an hour after the murder was committed.

The assumption is based on the apron having been missed earlier which, IMO, is more likely. If Jack had a bolt hole he would have disposed of the organs there and returned to leave the apron. JMO.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The assumption is based on the apron having been missed earlier which, IMO, is more likely. If Jack had a bolt hole he would have disposed of the organs there and returned to leave the apron. JMO.

I think since Pc Long was definite that he did not overlook the apron at 2.20 a.m., the best evidence is that it was left there later - at some time between 2.20 a.m. and 2.55 a.m.

That suggests that the murderer went home beforehand and that he lived near Goulston Street, in which case he may have deposited the organs at his place of lodging before depositing the apron in Goulston Street.

[Curious Cat]

Leaving their bolthole, returning to their bolthole, leaving their bolthole again and then returning once more in the space of a few hours. Hands covered in blood and in possession of a kidney.

The killer in this instance with that pattern of movement on that night in those hours must have been fairly confident of not being spotted. The bolthole must have been unshared, allowing the killer to come and go as they pleased. This largely rules out lodging houses - too many other people around within the residence and a duty manager keeping an eye on who is staying. Instead, the killer is more likely to be renting a place of their own. A ready change of clothes is also likely as going back out in the same clothes would raise suspicions. Someone able to afford to rent a room and extra clothing is probably someone of reasonable means. According to Booth's map there were plenty of places around Whitechapel High Street considered either mixed/comfortable or middle class. The killer's bolthole doesn't need to be in one of the rougher streets.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my reply below.

The killer in this instance with that pattern of movement on that night in those hours must have been fairly confident of not being spotted.


That's why I think he lived near Goulston Street.

[Wickerman]

I think since Pc Long was definite that he did not overlook the apron at 2.20 a.m., the best evidence is that it was left there later - at some time between 2.20 a.m. and 2.55 a.m.

That suggests that the murderer went home beforehand and that he lived near Goulston Street, in which case he may have deposited the organs at his place of lodging before depositing the apron in Goulston Street.

No-one ever considers what the killer was doing between the murders of Stride and Eddowes.
Roughly 50 minutes separates the two killings, but only 10-15 minutes separates the two murder sites.
He could quite easily have been 'home' once already that night if he lived where you suggest.
The medical evidence concerning the knife used on Stride has never been considered as consistent with the one used on Eddowes.
Had he called in 'home' after his attack on Stride, then decided to go out again but with a different knife?
Allowing for travel time between the two (10-15 mins), there is roughly 30 mins to account for.