From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Wickerman]

Here is a pdf version where the pdf page number 266 is the book page 185.
https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-ultimat...195255327.html
I've downloaded the pdf, and it works fine.

'click' on the small arrow in the window "Download (EPUB)"
then select PDF version.

[Bridewell]

Hi Trevor,

I would submit that the apron piece was far more incriminating than a knife or bloodstains. A butcher could have explained the latter, but not the apron piece.

I agree that it is unlikely that the apron was used to wipe blood for the same reasons that you detail. Did he use it to transport organs? To risk this act he must have really wanted them. Then what did he do with the organs after he discarded the apron at Goulston St. With all due respect to your opinion, if he cut himself it was an unanticipated event for which he needed a cloth from the site. He then kept it only until the bleeding stopped. I think that he only kept the apron until his matter of necessity subsided and then jettisoned the incriminating evidence.

Cheers, George

Such a shame that the apron piece wasn't kept somewhere as any blood on it which wasn't that of Eddowes herself could have provided useful DNA evidence in the modern era.

[Bridewell]

Hi,
sorry for delay in replying but having to navigate through the casebook to find where I got my info.

It was established that Arnold, Swanson and Long didnt write their reports until the 6th November, the eve of Eddowes inquest.
This was five and a half weeks after the event.
I refer you to the thread "The Apron" posted some years back...it was Simon Woods who bought it to my attention....not to sure about Halse now, maybe my memory has let me down on him.

Regards

We probably need to differentiate here between PBE (Pocket Book Entry) time/date and the date of preparation of witness statement. In my time (and doubtless similarly in the Late Victorian Era) an officer would make up his or her notes either at the time or as soon as practicable thereafter. When called to give evidence he or she would prepare a witness statement based upon the earlier pocket book entry. In court you can only refer to your original notes, not the witness statement generated from them. In short, there is nothing untoward about the officers writing their reports/statements some weeks later; it's pretty much standard practise.

[Indian Harry]

I apologize if this was already addressed, but anyway, here we go. In today's world you never see a grown man carrying chalk. Back in the 1980s my parents rented our basement out to a young man that worked with metal. He carried chalks that were presumably used to mark metal. In all my years that is the only example of a grown man carrying around chalk that comes to mind. I know the Victorian era is different than ours but I imagine even then that most adults didn't carry chalk around. Assuming that Jack is responsible for the graffiti, what kind of professions would require the use of chalk back then?

[Bridewell]

I apologize if this was already addressed, but anyway, here we go. In today's world you never see a grown man carrying chalk. Back in the 1980s my parents rented our basement out to a young man that worked with metal. He carried chalks that were presumably used to mark metal. In all my years that is the only example of a grown man carrying around chalk that comes to mind. I know the Victorian era is different than ours but I imagine even then that most adults didn't carry chalk around. Assuming that Jack is responsible for the graffiti, what kind of professions would require the use of chalk back then?

Schoolteacher, milliner and tailor certainly. Perhaps also a carpenter or other craftsman needing to make a temporary mark?

[Indian Harry]

Schoolteacher, milliner and tailor certainly. Perhaps also a carpenter or other craftsman needing to make a temporary mark?

Now that you've mentioned tailor and milliner I have to admit that there would be more people carrying around chalk back then compared to now. In modern times trades related to carpentry and wood working rely on a pencil. If we go back 130 years though this might not be the case.

I was kind of hoping that chalk possession could have helped narrow down the suspects but it is reasonable to believe that chalk would be more common back then.

The graffiti letterig was described as being 3/4" tall. If someone were to use the kind of chalks we associate with school blackboards I think it would be very unnatural to write so small. Should we instead consider a different kind of chalk with a finer point? Would people working with fabrics use such a chalk?

[c.d.]

The problem with trying to determine professions where chalk might be used is that we can't rule out the possibility of the author of the GSG simply seeing chalk on the ground and the idea of writing a message came to him at that time.

c.d.

[Indian Harry]

The problem with trying to determine professions where chalk might be used is that we can't rule out the possibility of the author of the GSG simply seeing chalk on the ground and the idea of writing a message came to him at that time.

c.d.

Or if as some people believe that the murderer was trying to direct suspicion to a member of the local Jewish community writing the message could have been part of a premeditated plan. In that scenario he would have obtained a chalk regardless of his profession. The possibilities are endless.

[Bridewell]

Or if as some people believe that the murderer was trying to direct suspicion to a member of the local Jewish community writing the message could have been part of a premeditated plan. In that scenario he would have obtained a chalk regardless of his profession. The possibilities are endless.

And the possibility that the graffito and the apron piece are unconnected cannot be ruled out. Antisemitic graffiti was supposedly pretty commonplace.

[Wickerman]

We probably need to differentiate here between PBE (Pocket Book Entry) time/date and the date of preparation of witness statement. In my time (and doubtless similarly in the Late Victorian Era) an officer would make up his or her notes either at the time or as soon as practicable thereafter. When called to give evidence he or she would prepare a witness statement based upon the earlier pocket book entry. In court you can only refer to your original notes, not the witness statement generated from them. In short, there is nothing untoward about the officers writing their reports/statements some weeks later; it's pretty much standard practise.

There does seem to be some confusion here. The claim that reports were written later was aimed at some reports dated 6 Nov., which is completely unrelated to the Eddowes inquest of which there were only two sittings: 4th Oct. & 11th Oct., so those reports dated 6 Nov. are related to something else.

[Wickerman]

I apologize if this was already addressed, but anyway, here we go. In today's world you never see a grown man carrying chalk. Back in the 1980s my parents rented our basement out to a young man that worked with metal. He carried chalks that were presumably used to mark metal. In all my years that is the only example of a grown man carrying around chalk that comes to mind. I know the Victorian era is different than ours but I imagine even then that most adults didn't carry chalk around. Assuming that Jack is responsible for the graffiti, what kind of professions would require the use of chalk back then?

Are you kidding?
Druitt enthusiasts must be grinding their teeth at that remark.

[Wickerman]

Now that you've mentioned tailor and milliner I have to admit that there would be more people carrying around chalk back then compared to now. In modern times trades related to carpentry and wood working rely on a pencil. If we go back 130 years though this might not be the case.

I was kind of hoping that chalk possession could have helped narrow down the suspects but it is reasonable to believe that chalk would be more common back then.

The graffiti letterig was described as being 3/4" tall. If someone were to use the kind of chalks we associate with school blackboards I think it would be very unnatural to write so small. Should we instead consider a different kind of chalk with a finer point? Would people working with fabrics use such a chalk?

Have you tried to write with a piece of common stick-chalk like used on a blackboard?
To write letters 3/4 inch tall with a stick of chalk is almost impossible, by the time you are on your 4th/5th letter it's just a smudge of chalk, no letter is discernible even on a smooth surface. You would have to use the edge of the stick and keep rolling it as you write.

I've long expected there is an error here, perhaps Halse said 3 to 4 inch not 3/4 of an inch?
I just can't see how a press reporter could mistake the verbal "three to four" for "three-quarters", unless it is a error by the press editor who simply read the notes of the journalist and misread a "-" (dash) for a "/" ?
I'm more inclined to think this is nearer the truth.

[Wickerman]

And the possibility that the graffito and the apron piece are unconnected cannot be ruled out. Antisemitic graffiti was supposedly pretty commonplace.

Given the potential difficulty in writing anything in an unlighted location at 2:00 am (?) - unrelated, is my preference.

[Indian Harry]

Given the potential difficulty in writing anything in an unlighted location at 2:00 am (?) - unrelated, is my preference.

It's a lot more exciting to envision the ripper involved in the graffiti but I agree with you and Bridewell that there is a high probability that the graffiti is unrelated.

[Curious Cat]

Here is a pdf version where the pdf page number 266 is the book page 185.
https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-ultimat...195255327.html
I've downloaded the pdf, and it works fine.

'click' on the small arrow in the window "Download (EPUB)"
then select PDF version.

I'll have a proper look at that when I get the chance.