Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Scott Nelson]

Then there's this from Macnaghten (referring to Kosminski): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square." Where did this come from?

[jerryd]

Then there's this from Macnaghten (referring to Kosminski): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square." Where did this come from?

Exactly, Scott.

[jerryd]

Hi Mark.

Never a need to apologize. You are NOT a nuisance,

I think Sagar got that part wrong. And probably a lot of the rest of it, too. George Morris blew the whistle according to testimony and alerted Harvey and Collard while Watkins stayed at the body. I guess my point is, there were a few rumors going around at the time, by boots on the ground, that a policeman saw/bumped into a potential suspect. None of this comes up in the official stuff, but where did these rumors begin? i,e PC Langdon, Detective Sagar and Sergeant White. Is there some truth in it if these men that were on the force at the time are saying what they are saying?

Should be PC Holland and not Collard. Sorry.

[JeffHamm]

Interesting. As we get closer to 1888, the stories are less detailed, but the gist is similar. A city of, sees a man before the body is found by that PC, coming out of a court near mitere square.

These could all fit the current simulation's suggestion of the passage from Mitre Street to Lease hall, though of course I want to repeat, that's not proof, just makes it plausible based on our available evidence.

It changes, though, McNaughton's statement to being being about MS as he said, rather than seeing it as a mistake for PC Smith's sighting in Berner street.

While I find this all quite intrueging, and think one could build a good argument for it to be considered as a possibility (and certainly something to focus on in terms of further basic research - as in looking for original documents with this mentioned- without confirmation from that last step we will be left with another case of an idea in need of more evidence.

That said, I like what is shaping up here as a new twist on a collection of stories that have generally been set aside as baseless rumour. They still might be, but there is enough here to at least suggest there might be something to them. I certainly have never given these much credence, but with them altogether like this, and with a possible location for where it might have happened emerging without them being involved in creating the simulation, I think I have to change my view and allow there could be something real behind them after all. Not definately of course, but I don't think I can dismiss them entirely anymore.

Nice work everyone

Jeff

[JeffHamm]

"A city of..." should, of course, read "A city PC ..."

and "Lease Hall" should be Leadenhall ...

autocorrect is not my friend, and I will stop going through and looking for errors not of my own origin. Meaning, any further mistakes are best addressed elsewhere, but from me all you will get is "forwarding address unknown"

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

That said, I like what is shaping up here as a new twist on a collection of stories that have generally been set aside as baseless rumour. They still might be, but there is enough here to at least suggest there might be something to them. I certainly have never given these much credence, but with them altogether like this, and with a possible location for where it might have happened emerging without them being involved in creating the simulation, I think I have to change my view and allow there could be something real behind them after all. Not definately of course, but I don't think I can dismiss them entirely anymore.

Some researchers have suspected that any original documents, police briefings, internal memos, etc., concerning "the man in the passage" with respect to the Eddowes murder (if they existed), were probably destroyed in the WWII bombings. City Police files, largely impacted, were kept separately from Scotland Yard records.

[JeffHamm]

Some researchers have suspected that any original documents, police briefings, internal memos, etc., concerning "the man in the passage" with respect to the Eddowes murder (if they existed), were probably destroyed in the WWII bombings. City Police files, largely impacted, were kept separately from Scotland Yard records.

Yah, that's one of the problems we face for all of the questions that get discussed of course given, as you say, a lot of the original documents are lost to us. The hope is, of course, that there is some record surviving, even if it's in the form of personal letters, etc. While those aren't official, of course, it may be all that's left - assuming of course it was ever written down in such a format. But if it was, then the closer to 1888 the better. The McNaughton statement, for example, is tantalising, although it's often suggested that he's misremembered PC Smith's sighting during the Stride case, which is a valid possibility.

- Jeff

[MrBarnett]

I believe the alley being referred to was called Smith’s Buildings. I’m doubtful that it provided public access from Leadenhall Street to Mitre Street in 1888, though. The most accurate maps available, the OS and Goad, do not show it being open at the Mitre Street end.

Tantalisingly, Bacon’s map of 1888 does show it open at both ends, but that may well not have been updated from an earlier version. Not every new edition of a map is based on a complete resurveying of the entire area.

I would suggest that if both the OS and Goad are showing one thing and other maps are showing something else, the likelihood is that the other maps are wrong.

The 1887 Goad shows a one story building with a cement or asphalt roof, partially built of wood and ‘b[ric]k arched’. If brick arched had meant a passageway, that would have been shown by means of a curved line such as you see at the entrance from Leadenhall Street and into the central courtyard with the glass roofs. I think the Mitre Street entrance had been infilled with a small shop/workshop by 1887 - probably prior to 1873/4.

There is a press article from 1874 which describes a Jewish School, the Beth Hamedrash, which was situated in ‘a dirty court in Leadenhall Street, having “no thoroughfare”, entitled “Smith’s Buildings”.

[MrBarnett]

I’ve got a large-scale (yard to the mile) OS map of the area somewhere, but I can’t find it at the moment. The alley was so small that it’s name is illegible on most maps. This Bacon’s map of 1868 is the best I can do for now.

[JeffHamm]

I believe the alley being referred to was called Smith’s Buildings. I’m doubtful that it provided public access from Leadenhall Street to Mitre Street in 1888, though. The most accurate maps available, the OS and Goad, do not show it being open at the Mitre Street end.

Tantalisingly, Bacon’s map of 1888 does show it open at both ends, but that may well not have been updated from an earlier version. Not every new edition of a map is based on a complete resurveying of the entire area.

I would suggest that if both the OS and Goad are showing one thing and other maps are showing something else, the likelihood is that the other maps are wrong.

The 1887 Goad shows a one story building with a cement or asphalt roof, partially built of wood and ‘b[ric]k arched’. If brick arched had meant a passageway, that would have been shown by means of a curved line such as you see at the entrance from Leadenhall Street and into the central courtyard with the glass roofs. I think the Mitre Street entrance had been infilled with a small shop/workshop by 1887 - probably prior to 1873/4.

There is a press article from 1874 which describes a Jewish School, the Beth Hamedrash, which was situated in ‘a dirty court in Leadenhall Street, having “no thoroughfare”, entitled “Smith’s Buildings”.

Yah, I'm not sure the passage went all the way through. There was that one map posted earlier, which I reposted, that implies it does, as does the Bacon map you've shown, but others don't seem to show it. The OS 25" one doesn't show a connection to Mitre Street, for example, though it shows a covered passage from Leadenhall into a courtyard area. But if it doesn't/didn't connect to Mitre Street, then there's nothing to see here.

There's just enough to tease, with some maps looking like there is a connection, but others indicate no connection. I tend to agree with you and if it's not there on the Goad and OS maps, it was probably not there. And without it, the whole idea falls apart. Verifying the state of this passage would be a key question to target. Until then, we're building on sand.

- Jeff

[MrBarnett]

Yah, I'm not sure the passage went all the way through. There was that one map posted earlier, which I reposted, that implies it does, as does the Bacon map you've shown, but others don't seem to show it. The OS 25" one doesn't show a connection to Mitre Street, for example, though it shows a covered passage from Leadenhall into a courtyard area. But if it doesn't/didn't connect to Mitre Street, then there's nothing to see here.

There's just enough to tease, with some maps looking like there is a connection, but others indicate no connection. I tend to agree with you and if it's not there on the Goad and OS maps, it was probably not there. And without it, the whole idea falls apart. Verifying the state of this passage would be a key question to target. Until then, we're building on sand.

- Jeff

The maps that show the connection show no building at all in the gap between 36 and 37 Mitre Street. So unless the Goad building filling that gap is a fantasy (sorry:-)) they are wrong in that respect at least. Could there have been a passageway through that one-storied building which the Goad and OS maps didn’t record correctly? It’s possible, but so unlikely that as far as I’m concerned there wasn’t one.

[JeffHamm]

The maps that show the connection show no building at all in the gap between 36 and 37 Mitre Street. So unless the Goad building filling that gap is a fantasy (sorry:-)) they are wrong in that respect at least. Could there have been a passageway through that one-storied building which the Goad and OS maps didn’t record correctly? It’s possible, but so unlikely that as far as I’m concerned there wasn’t one.

Yah, the OS maps do seem to record small passages, so it's looking like it didn't go all the way through. That's a shame, as it was getting fun. (Oh, and yes, if those buildings filled in a gap, then they changed reality, so yes, fantasy would be what I would call that too! )

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Here are maps from 1878 and 1897 that still show the passage through. I want to add that I have spoken of a man that had connections to John Pound who owned the trunk warehouse at No. 75 Leadenhall and later owned No. 36 Mitre Street. Unfortunately, I can't say whether he would have been allowed access to any of those premises. He was in a partnership with John Pound around the relevant times, IIRC. His name is Franklin Sydney King. The doorstep of his business, David King and Sons, was exactly where the body of Alice McKenzie was found. His childhood residence, is the gate at which Catherine Eddowes was found (#5 Mitre Street). And he is listed on properties at nearby King Street (St James Square) and Goulston Court which was at the back of his Castle Alley business and main offices at nearby Billiter Street. So, even though the passage may not have been a public access through from one side to the other, someone still could have lurked in the Leadenhall side of the archway and even possibly passed through #36 Mitre Street if he had a reason to be there.

[jerryd]

Also, there is another archway alley on Mitre Street leading to the school grounds.

[jerryd]

The Owner/Occupier in 1888 listed for No. 2 Mitre Street (where the archway is in my last post) for the school was John Pound. Again, credit to Debs for the listing.