Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Michael W Richards]

Thats the first time Ive ever heard or seen someone suggests a connection by address and show evidence it was possibe. 2 points for you today.

[Juniper4576]

When Kate gave Sgt Byfield her name as Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street ......











The address at the rear of Strides and MJK's real name.

Kidney and Stride were at 38 Dorset St,Chapman at 36 and Mary Ann Kelly,29 years old at 26.

DJA, wow, just wow

[Scott Nelson]

Mary Ann Kelly (Eddowes?) was at 26..?? Really? I thought the shed story was suspect.

[Juniper4576]

Mary Ann Kelly (Eddowes?) was at 26..?? Really? I thought the shed story was suspect.

Shed story?

The room at the rear of 26 Dorset St = access by the door behind MJKs bed?

[Michael W Richards]

Shed story?

The room at the rear of 26 Dorset St = access by the door behind MJKs bed?

The room at the rear of 26 Dorset at ground level was a parlour, which opened up to access the staircase going upstairs, accessed at the time of the murder by the door inside the archway. It was converted to a rental unit for obvious greed reasons, opened to the courtyard, and closed off to the stairs and house by the partition wall on the right side of Marys room. The shed, used for ofloading stores for the house, was accessed from the street itself..and arguably was under Praters room.

[Juniper4576]

The room at the rear of 26 Dorset at ground level was a parlour, which opened up to access the staircase going upstairs, accessed at the time of the murder by the door inside the archway. It was converted to a rental unit for obvious greed reasons, opened to the courtyard, and closed off to the stairs and house by the partition wall on the right side of Marys room. The shed, used for ofloading stores for the house, was accessed from the street itself..and arguably was under Praters room.

Thank you for clarifying that, and the shed story?

[JeffHamm]

Thank you for clarifying that, and the shed story?

Hi Juniper4576,

There's a story that Eddowes lived, or at least slept a few nights, in a shed next to Mary Jane Kelly's residence. It's part of the idea that the victims all knew each other and were working together (i.e. Royal Conspiracy is an example of this, but not the only one, just using it as a well known example). Others argue that just some of the victims knew each other, typically Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly based upon Eddowes using the name Mary Ann Kelly on one occasion. It should be kept in mind, though, that aliase were very common, and giving false names and addresses typical behaviour when arrested for things like prostitution and/or drunkeness (people didn't carry any form of ID after all, so as long as the Police Officer didn't actually know you then giving a false name made sense. False names were also given for pawn tickets, though I'm not entirely sure why that would be the case if the items were not stolen? I'm sure there was a reason for it though). Anyway, back to the "shed story", which is that Eddowes slept in the shed near Mary Jane Kelly's room. I think the majority of people see it as a myth (meaning untrue), and I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards. I forget all the arguments to back that up, though, so I will leave that to those more expert on that topic. But, that's basically it, with a bit of context to boot.

- Jeff

[DJA]

Thank you for clarifying that, and the shed story?

Possibly 25 and 24 Dorset Street.

[DJA]

DJA, wow, just wow

Mary Ann Kelly's family was the work of our very own Paddy.

Her baptismal record at St Leonard's Church is interesting as she would have been 9 years of age when Henry Gawen Sutton took over as the Vestry Board's Medical Officer circa 1868.
Interesting parallel to the girl trampled in RL Stevenson's novella.

The original Edward Hyde,200 years prior.

[DJA]

Too late to edit.

Chapman was at 35 Dorset,not 36.

38,35 and that's prolly John McCarthy's carriage out side 26.

[jerryd]

Hi Juniper4576,

There's a story that Eddowes lived, or at least slept a few nights, in a shed next to Mary Jane Kelly's residence. It's part of the idea that the victims all knew each other and were working together (i.e. Royal Conspiracy is an example of this, but not the only one, just using it as a well known example). Others argue that just some of the victims knew each other, typically Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly based upon Eddowes using the name Mary Ann Kelly on one occasion. It should be kept in mind, though, that aliase were very common, and giving false names and addresses typical behaviour when arrested for things like prostitution and/or drunkeness (people didn't carry any form of ID after all, so as long as the Police Officer didn't actually know you then giving a false name made sense. False names were also given for pawn tickets, though I'm not entirely sure why that would be the case if the items were not stolen? I'm sure there was a reason for it though). Anyway, back to the "shed story", which is that Eddowes slept in the shed near Mary Jane Kelly's room. I think the majority of people see it as a myth (meaning untrue), and I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards. I forget all the arguments to back that up, though, so I will leave that to those more expert on that topic. But, that's basically it, with a bit of context to boot.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

There is a press report that states that Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman were friends. Echo, Nov 9, 1888.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

There is a press report that states that Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman were friends. Echo, Nov 9, 1888.

Interesting, although I'm not sure I would buy into that. The same report also says that Mary Jane had a son living with her:

"...
The murdered woman had one child, a little boy of between six and seven. The little fellow lived with his mother. This poor child was sent out this morning, when the mother returned to the room with the assassin.
...
"
and while they're not the only press report to say that, we know that story to be false.

We have to keep in mind that Barnett says that Mary Jane used to ask him to read the papers to her about the murders, yet he never mentions that Mary Jane knew Annie Chapman. Also, if there were anything to it, then that would have got wider coverage and continued to be mentioned in later stories. The press, including the Echo of Nov 9, 1888, were pointing out how the police were being very tight lipped, and even barred the press from the courtyard. They had to get stories though, so in the early hours and days after a murder I think a lot of rumour (or even just stuff made up by the reporter) get put in print, and then fade as the facts come out. The press still embellish it (at the time it was called "new journalism", we now call it tabloid press). Anyway, the fact that Annie lodged not far from Mary Jane's room could very well have prompted the idea that they may have known each other, and so it appears in the press. However, as we look at other reports, and more official ones, we see this is entirely absent (nobody testifies at her inquest that she knew any of the other victims, for example.)

So, unless we can corroborate this with something a bit more substantial and reliable, it's looking like one for the round file. After all, this would be well known amongst those who knew Mary Jane, as if she were friends with Annie Chapman, she surely would have told people that when Annie was murdered, and so many people would have been aware of that connection. And yet, we never hear of it. Even the story doesn't indicate a source for this claim.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Interesting, although I'm not sure I would buy into that. The same report also says that Mary Jane had a son living with her:

"...
The murdered woman had one child, a little boy of between six and seven. The little fellow lived with his mother. This poor child was sent out this morning, when the mother returned to the room with the assassin.
...
"
and while they're not the only press report to say that, we know that story to be false.

We have to keep in mind that Barnett says that Mary Jane used to ask him to read the papers to her about the murders, yet he never mentions that Mary Jane knew Annie Chapman. Also, if there were anything to it, then that would have got wider coverage and continued to be mentioned in later stories. The press, including the Echo of Nov 9, 1888, were pointing out how the police were being very tight lipped, and even barred the press from the courtyard. They had to get stories though, so in the early hours and days after a murder I think a lot of rumour (or even just stuff made up by the reporter) get put in print, and then fade as the facts come out. The press still embellish it (at the time it was called "new journalism", we now call it tabloid press). Anyway, the fact that Annie lodged not far from Mary Jane's room could very well have prompted the idea that they may have known each other, and so it appears in the press. However, as we look at other reports, and more official ones, we see this is entirely absent (nobody testifies at her inquest that she knew any of the other victims, for example.)

So, unless we can corroborate this with something a bit more substantial and reliable, it's looking like one for the round file. After all, this would be well known amongst those who knew Mary Jane, as if she were friends with Annie Chapman, she surely would have told people that when Annie was murdered, and so many people would have been aware of that connection. And yet, we never hear of it. Even the story doesn't indicate a source for this claim.

- Jeff

I agree we need to proceed with caution on certain reports, however, as Tom Wescott rightly points out, a few of the victims and witnesses in this case admittedly patronized the Britannia pub. This indicates a small probability they may have known each other in some regard. Dismissal to the "round file" may be jumping to conclusions too quickly.

Do you believe the official reports contained 100% truth? I don't.

On a side note, the information that Debra found years ago regarding a statement made by Reverend Merrick and Whitechapel murder victims having been in Millbank prison is another interesting account. Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[JeffHamm]

I agree we need to proceed with caution on certain reports, however, as Tom Wescott rightly points out, a few of the victims and witnesses in this case admittedly patronized the Britannia pub. This indicates a small probability they may have known each other in some regard. Dismissal to the "round file" may be jumping to conclusions too quickly.

Do you believe the official reports contained 100% truth? I don't.

On a side note, the information that Debra found years ago regarding a statement made by Reverend Merrick and Whitechapel murder victims having been in Millbank prison is another interesting account. Work among the fallen as seen in the prison cell - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

Hi jerryd,

While I'm sure there are some inaccuracies in any documentation, the official files were attempting to document what was actually said and done. I think they are accurate, for the most part, in detailing what witnesses said, though would not be surprised if the "what was done" is sometimes phrased to put a more positive or face saving spin on things. Also, some witnesses may be more cautious when speaking to officials, while others may be prone to exaggerate their statements to increase their sense of importance. Newspapers, however, were motivated to sell papers and hence are more worthy of sceptisism.

Still, it is entirely possible some of the victims may have frequented the same pubs or locals on occasion, but that doesn't mean they were friends, or were even aware of each other. I've been to many pubs in my time, and while I may know some of the people who also go there the vast majority I would have no clue as to their names, nor would I recognize them if they appeared in a news story (particularly one that doesn't include a photo). So, for the papers to report that Kelly and Chapman were "friends" is highly likely to be inaccurate (in light of no one who knew either of the victims ever came forward to confirm that relationship). But being "friends" and "may have both gone to the same pub" are different concepts. Personally, I don't see anything to indicate that any of the victims knew any of the others by name, or even to the point that when word went round they realised who it was (as in "oh, was that the one we saw at the Ten Bells that Tuesday?", etc).

The area was crowded, and there were lots of pubs, and I get the feeling they didn't frequent a regular pub, but probably drifted around from one to the other, so wouldn't stand out as a regular per se.

Thanks for the link you've included. Will have a read.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

Hi jerryd,

While I'm sure there are some inaccuracies in any documentation, the official files were attempting to document what was actually said and done. I think they are accurate, for the most part, in detailing what witnesses said, though would not be surprised if the "what was done" is sometimes phrased to put a more positive or face saving spin on things. Also, some witnesses may be more cautious when speaking to officials, while others may be prone to exaggerate their statements to increase their sense of importance. Newspapers, however, were motivated to sell papers and hence are more worthy of sceptisism.

Still, it is entirely possible some of the victims may have frequented the same pubs or locals on occasion, but that doesn't mean they were friends, or were even aware of each other. I've been to many pubs in my time, and while I may know some of the people who also go there the vast majority I would have no clue as to their names, nor would I recognize them if they appeared in a news story (particularly one that doesn't include a photo). So, for the papers to report that Kelly and Chapman were "friends" is highly likely to be inaccurate (in light of no one who knew either of the victims ever came forward to confirm that relationship). But being "friends" and "may have both gone to the same pub" are different concepts. Personally, I don't see anything to indicate that any of the victims knew any of the others by name, or even to the point that when word went round they realised who it was (as in "oh, was that the one we saw at the Ten Bells that Tuesday?", etc).

The area was crowded, and there were lots of pubs, and I get the feeling they didn't frequent a regular pub, but probably drifted around from one to the other, so wouldn't stand out as a regular per se.

Thanks for the link you've included. Will have a read.

- Jeff

I believe, again with no real evidence, that there is a link, or something that brings the C5 and Jack together, I think there is a bit more to coming from that part of town etc