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It appears his beat wasn't to go into the square. If the passage was was well lit and he didn't go fully down the passage and only a cursory look up the passage he probably missed Jack doing his stuff with the light of the passage showing only darkness beyond
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"Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal" -
Yes! I agree with you on that. It really is the only possible explanation for how they were missed. Jack could have even hidden and waited to see if the PC would emerge in the Square or simply move on before he completed his 'work' on Eddowes.Originally posted by Juniper4576 View PostLast edited by Meet Ze Monster; 02-19-2021, 02:39 PM.Comment
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And imagine if Watkins, the other PC, didn't go into the square like he said he did, and carried on along Mitre Street...people did say they didn't hear any noise in the square.Originally posted by Meet Ze Monster View Post
I mentioned Jacks luck before!"Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"Comment
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Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
I've toyed with the idea that Watkins might have furphied a bit, but then to what end? It doesn't really serve the case any which way. As for noise in the square, I assume there would be a considerable echo from foot falls at least as you get in enclosed squares like that. Not to mention all the murdery bits. There would also be no ambient noise like in modern cities, making their apparent silence even more baffling. Those residents of Mitre Sq. must have been stone drunk, or fast asleep. Not to mention the night watchman who defies belief in that he heard nothing. Was his door not open a little way? It's not like he was listening to his iPod. Perhaps he was used to the prostitutes using the Square at night and sort of, turned a blind eye?Comment
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Lol I had to Google furphied. Well if it was his beat and he didn't patrol it that one time...
The watchman could of furphied also, or quite possibly turned a blind eye like you mentioned"Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"Comment
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It's all good... I only recently learned that word's meaning myself. :-)Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.
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As you can see I'm new here too. I was taking into account the murder of Stride to and thought things got really tight.Originally posted by Meet Ze Monster View Post
After people enlightened to look at different angles of things and shared the research to the level they have gone to to back it up it really opened my eyes."Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"Comment
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I understand. I was actually thinking, not including the Stride murder, just the timeframe of the Mitre Square event itself. As for the Stride case, there's a fair amount of people who disagree that she was a Ripper victim, and I'm on the fence with regards to Stride, but either way the Ripper would certainly have had enough time to commit both murders. My puzzle relates mostly to the miniscule timeframe with which Jack had to operate in around the Eddowes murder. But there is a lot of work already done on the timeframes by another, much more well-versed poster. I just have to settle the course of events in my mind to a satisfactory level - or get the most reasonable and logical series to fit within the very small timeframe.Originally posted by Juniper4576 View PostComment
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Hi Trevor,Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Perhaps not surprisingly I think it goes the other way and the more the times are looked at the more clear it becomes there was enough time unaccounted for, and therefore it was available. There is no direct evidence to indicate the time was not used, although I recognize your point that we cannot state as a fact it was all used, so we need to consider the possibility he did not. Given the lack of any direct evidence he did not, there's nothing to force us into concluding he did not have enough time.
As for this scenerio in particular, with the "7 minutes and sighted in St. James Place", that comes from a story that is not considered likely to be accurate. I think, as we look at the reported times, that conclusion is further supported. We have reports, only in the press of course, from Blenkinsop that nobody was noticed coming from Mitre Square into St. James Place (calling into question the very sighting), and the timings for it to happen are pushing the evidence to the point we have to discount some (if we start with the CPC as Eddowes and JtR), and even if we don't, they had to be so close on the heels of PC Watkins to enter the square at the required time that it is likely they would have been spotted. While the times could possibly allow for this to have happened, they are being pushed to limits and starting to crack. Given the reported sighting is considered highly questionable, I think the timings show that is the right view. So while the timings don't absolutely eliminate it from prossibility, I think they do lower it to the "improbable" category enough that it's not worth building a lot on it unless something else comes up to add support.
- JeffComment
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Is it possible that PC Harvey simply didn't see Jack doing his 'work' on Kate when he went into Church Passage?
I'm trying to see how Jack could have had more time with Kate."Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"Comment
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Hi Juniper4576,Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
It is possible. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and PC Harvey's beat did not include going into Mitre Square. As such, he would be looking through a lit area into the dark, which makes it very hard to see anything. However, the likelihood that JtR would stick around after PC Harvey turns around and heads away seems vanishingly small to me. And leaving at that time would explain why PC Watkin's doesn't spot him.
- JeffComment
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Hi Jeff
The more I think of it, Jack knew what he was doing, in both in the actual of ripping Kate open and his mental state as well as how to do it; how to get to the organs he wanted...fast, in the dark, and also to weave in and out of Police beats.
I believe Jack knew he wouldn't see Watkins for a while and where Harvey would be soon, possibly Harvey disturbed and Jack saw/heard him coming down Church Passage and that was his cue to leave...highly likely north like you said, effectively in front of Watkins but behind Harvey...or...he slipped between the two through into St. James's Place
Jim"Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"Comment
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Incidentally, posters who are unaware of these articles should read them if they are interested in the Mitre Square murder. The detail and analysis is phenomenal:
"As Far As Mitre Square" by Neil Bell and Jake Luukanen (Ripperologist no. 71 September 2006)
"City Beat: City PC 881 Edward Watkins" by Neil Bell and Robert Clack (Ripperologist no. 105 August 2009)
"City Beat: Harvey and Watkins, Part 1 - The Discovery" by Gavin Bromley (Ripperologist no. 74) and Part 2 - "The Flight" Ripperologist 75 (January 2007)Comment
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Two related pieces on the City PC Witness:
"In search of the City P.C. Witness Part 1" by Wolf Vanderlinden (No. 69 Whitechapel Society Journal August 2016) and Part 2 (no. 70 October 2016).
Excellent analysis of the Mitre Square murder, Harvey and Watkins -- who may have seen what, confusions of murder scenes and conflicting press reports.Comment
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Hi Jim,Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
I suspect JtR was more interested in killing/mutilating, and the organ taking was a desire that the act created. While I think he had generalised local knowledge that beats tended to be around 15 minutes, and would be aware if a PC went by, I don't think he knew the specific beats. He might have seen Watkins, so knew he had limited time, so worked fast. He seems to have been scared off for Nicole's, and Chapman's crime was very busy, so I don't think he was all that cautious and PC Harvey's arrival may have been lucky for him. He was more lucky than clever, though in his mind he would have reversed that. That's my view, for what it is worth.
- JeffComment
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