Originally posted by JeffHamm
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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Well, I doubt he would have used the carriageway size exit Jeff, I think alleys and lanes is this guys motif. Church Lane seems to me to be the most accessible and cleanest egress point, but of course not with a patrolman in it. He left before Watkins, we know that...did he leave before Harvey? IF Kate was seen by Lawende that is. Is there really enough time? Some would argue Yes, for me, I doubt it. Too much done and extra, time wasting, cuts..like the apron. And I do not believe Harvey would have simply missed seeing something if the killer was still there.
As for Harvey missing JtR in the square, it is rather the reverse, given the lamp at the end of Church Passage, Harvey only has to patrol to the point he reaches the far lit side as the lamp lights up the Mitre Square end of the passage. Havey's patrol does not include Mitre Square, so once he gets to the point he can see the remaining portion of Church Passage, he's still a distance from the end of the passage and has a lamp between him and the unlit square. Basically, that's going to prevent him from seeing into the square (but not from being seen by someone in the square because Harvey will be lit up looking into the dark, rather than in the dark looking at someone lit up). Given that, it's highly improbable he would have seen anything in the corner, and indeed, he didn't (though we know Eddowes' body at least was there at the time).
JtR might even have crouched and hid. While this strikes me as highly improbable behavior as I imagine I would flee, I'm not a negrophilic serial killer (which JtR's behaviours suggest he was). Peter Sutcliff, however, did exactly that on a number of occasions when he was almost caught in the act of killing, once by the police if I recall correctly. Anyway, JtR may very well have waited long enough to see what PC Harvey would do, and when it was clear Harvey was going to leave, then JtR probably got out of there by the nearest exit, which in this case would be out into Mitre Street.
And yes, there is enough time unaccounted for, even if the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR; it's tight, but even the shortest amount of time unaccounted for exceeds the longest estimated time (5 minutes) required for the murder and mutilations. It becomes easier to imagine as one starts to consider the time ranges, as these expand the amount of time available rather than reduce it. Earlier in this thread I present a fair number of posts on this point, so won't repeat it all here.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by Juniper4576 View PostWith regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.
I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?
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Jim P
Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.
Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
Hi Jim P.
Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.
Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.
- Jeff
As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:
Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history."Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"
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Hello Juniper, all,
Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
Hi Jeff
As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:
Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history.
As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.
Grüße,
Boris~ All perils, specially malignant, are recurrent - Thomas De Quincey ~
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Originally posted by bolo View PostHello Juniper, all,
I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.
As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.
Grüße,
Boris
Fair one, I didn't think of that
Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?
JimLast edited by Juniper4576; 02-09-2021, 07:41 PM."Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"
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Originally posted by Juniper4576 View PostAnother thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?~ All perils, specially malignant, are recurrent - Thomas De Quincey ~
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The Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.
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Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?
JimMy name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
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Originally posted by Scott Nelson View PostThe Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.
Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.
And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).
- Jeff
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Originally posted by bolo View PostHello Juniper, all,
I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.
As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.
Grüße,
Boris
Anyway, St. Botolph's is on Houndsditch, which I think is mentioned by the PC when they say she turned left from the police station (something like "turned left and headed towards Houndsditch"), but I could be mistaken about that and don't have my notes on hand. If my memory serves, though, it may be the PC presumed she was heading to Houndsditch because, well, that's where the unfortunates go after all. Of course, it could also just be because it was the major street and was just being used as a well known landmark.
- Jeff
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
Except PC Watkins was patrolling Mitre Square at about 1:30, and Lawende et al sighted the Church Passage couple between 1:33 and 1:35 (based on Leve and Lawende's statements, respectively). Lawende et al were waiting for the rain to stop before leaving the club, so given they estimated a leaving time of between 1:33 and 1:35, it appears that's roughly when the rain let up enough for them to move on. So, while it is possible JtR and Eddowes entered Mitre Square from either Mitre Street or St. James place, it seems improbable to me for them to enter the square before the rain let up no matter which entrance they chose. And, if they came in from St. James, even less probable given it was covered and so better sheltered.
Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.
And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).
- Jeff
I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.
But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Hi Jeff
I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.
But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
- Jeff
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