Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, if PC Harvey lied about patrolling Church Passage then things look different. However, way back at the start of this thread I posted the results of simulating locations based upon the known beats (as they were to be done) and patrol times (as testified to), and based upon the reconstruction nothing in the testimony gets compromised. Meaning, it all lines up and corresponds to what is testified to and the reconstruction doesn't contradict the testimony. We also know there was a light at the end of Church Passage, just before going into Mitre Square, and that Mitre Square wasn't part of PC Harvey's beat. So, given that, PC Harvey would, I think it fair to suggest, only need to patrol Church Passage far enough to be able to cover the dark portion, and once he reaches the lit area, doesn't need to go to the end of it and so would be that much further from where Church Passage empties into Mitre Square. He would also be looking through a lit area into the dark corner, and so would be unlikely to see anything in the square, but as that's not part of his patrol, no big deal to him on that. But, if JtR were in the dark corner, he would have a very good chance of noticing PC Harvey and see that PC Harvy turn around and leave, giving him a good opportunity to flee one of the alternative routes, just before PC Watkins arrives a few minutes later.

Basically, I don't think there's any need to suggest PC Harvey didn't patrol the passage as he testifies, other than to open up consideration of Church Passage as an exit route. And yet, if JtR did see PC Harvey turn around and leave, I suppose one could then argue that he now knows that passage won't be patrolled for a bit, so it's a safe option, and he may even see PC Harvey heading away from Church Passage and so then flees the other way, taking him towards Goulston Street. I admit, this is a "just so" story, and it would require some pretty unusual choices to be made by JtR (I would think the instinct would be to flee by one of the other routes rather than follow the police), but it does mean we can't rule it out completely. Evaluation of how probable the above is becomes entirely subjective.

- Jeff

Well, I doubt he would have used the carriageway size exit Jeff, I think alleys and lanes is this guys motif. Church Lane seems to me to be the most accessible and cleanest egress point, but of course not with a patrolman in it. He left before Watkins, we know that...did he leave before Harvey? IF Kate was seen by Lawende that is. Is there really enough time? Some would argue Yes, for me, I doubt it. Too much done and extra, time wasting, cuts..like the apron. And I do not believe Harvey would have simply missed seeing something if the killer was still there.

[JeffHamm]

Well, I doubt he would have used the carriageway size exit Jeff, I think alleys and lanes is this guys motif. Church Lane seems to me to be the most accessible and cleanest egress point, but of course not with a patrolman in it. He left before Watkins, we know that...did he leave before Harvey? IF Kate was seen by Lawende that is. Is there really enough time? Some would argue Yes, for me, I doubt it. Too much done and extra, time wasting, cuts..like the apron. And I do not believe Harvey would have simply missed seeing something if the killer was still there.

By Carriageway sized exit I presume you mean out into Mitre Street? That would be the most logical, actually, given it's close to the murder location, and away from PC Havey as he approaches (presuming that's triggered JtR's flight, of course). Church Passage (is that what you mean by Church Lane) is also viable once Harvey has turned around and exited, and there's also the exit through St. James Place (another alley way).

As for Harvey missing JtR in the square, it is rather the reverse, given the lamp at the end of Church Passage, Harvey only has to patrol to the point he reaches the far lit side as the lamp lights up the Mitre Square end of the passage. Havey's patrol does not include Mitre Square, so once he gets to the point he can see the remaining portion of Church Passage, he's still a distance from the end of the passage and has a lamp between him and the unlit square. Basically, that's going to prevent him from seeing into the square (but not from being seen by someone in the square because Harvey will be lit up looking into the dark, rather than in the dark looking at someone lit up). Given that, it's highly improbable he would have seen anything in the corner, and indeed, he didn't (though we know Eddowes' body at least was there at the time).

JtR might even have crouched and hid. While this strikes me as highly improbable behavior as I imagine I would flee, I'm not a negrophilic serial killer (which JtR's behaviours suggest he was). Peter Sutcliff, however, did exactly that on a number of occasions when he was almost caught in the act of killing, once by the police if I recall correctly. Anyway, JtR may very well have waited long enough to see what PC Harvey would do, and when it was clear Harvey was going to leave, then JtR probably got out of there by the nearest exit, which in this case would be out into Mitre Street.

And yes, there is enough time unaccounted for, even if the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR; it's tight, but even the shortest amount of time unaccounted for exceeds the longest estimated time (5 minutes) required for the murder and mutilations. It becomes easier to imagine as one starts to consider the time ranges, as these expand the amount of time available rather than reduce it. Earlier in this thread I present a fair number of posts on this point, so won't repeat it all here.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

....
Jim P

Hi Jim P.

Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.

Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

Hi Jim P.

Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.

Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff

As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:

Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history.

[bolo]

Hello Juniper, all,

Hi Jeff

As you say she was a casual prostitute and not a seasoned one like the rest. I have a niggling doubt, and that is all that it is, that Liz Stride wasn't a victim, but with what you say I think of this:

Kate being a casual prostitute asked others where she could go, advice given was St. Botolph's Church. Jack also with his blood up goes somewhere where he knows he could pick someone up, St. Botolph's Church heads there, and the rest of the nights activities are history.

I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

Grüße,

Boris

[Juniper4576]

Hello Juniper, all,



I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

Grüße,

Boris

Schlom Boris

Fair one, I didn't think of that

Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

Jim

[bolo]

Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

On the whole, I think that Jack was an opportunistic killer who let his victims take him to a secluded spot. It is difficult to tell why he ended up on Mitre Square on that fateful early morning but it may have had something to do with the upheaval caused by Liz Stride's death who may or may not have been killed by his hand, he may have bolted westwards and acted out his anger on Kate instead who happened to be on the wrong spot at the wrong time.

[Scott Nelson]

Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

He would have been unaware of any artificial boundary.

[Scott Nelson]

The Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.

[MrBarnett]

He would have been unaware of any artificial boundary.

What makes you say that, Scott?

[DJA]

Another thing that gets me thinking with regards to Mitre Square is that is over the Police boundary...probably insignificant to Jack, or was it?

Jim

Jack the Ripper would have been comfortable with Major Henry Smith in charge,as he was one of those protecting him.

[JeffHamm]

The Mitre Square scenario becomes far simpler if you regard the sighting of the couple standing at Church Passage by Lawende and friends as that of another couple. When Lawende and the others passed the entrance, the Ripper had likely just finished or was close to finishing with Eddowes in the dark corner of the Square. Seven minutes later he passes out of St. James Passage and is seen by Watkins.

Except PC Watkins was patrolling Mitre Square at about 1:30, and Lawende et al sighted the Church Passage couple between 1:33 and 1:35 (based on Leve and Lawende's statements, respectively). Lawende et al were waiting for the rain to stop before leaving the club, so given they estimated a leaving time of between 1:33 and 1:35, it appears that's roughly when the rain let up enough for them to move on. So, while it is possible JtR and Eddowes entered Mitre Square from either Mitre Street or St. James place, it seems improbable to me for them to enter the square before the rain let up no matter which entrance they chose. And, if they came in from St. James, even less probable given it was covered and so better sheltered.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.

And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hello Juniper, all,



I think St. Botolph's and surroundings was a hot spot for policemen, plainclothes, vigilant committee members and amateur detectives to look out for suspicious punters, I find it highly unlikely that Jack went there to find a new victim. The East End bush drums were droning out the news of yet another murder (Stride), after all, and the overall atmosphere was such that a lynchmob could form within minutes and it did not take much for that to happen.

As for the direction Kate took when she left the Police Station, personally I do not think it is of any significance because the only thing we can say for sure is that she got killed on Mitre Square shortly afterwards, and even though it can be assumed that she wanted to earn a few pennies to pay for a bed for the night, there are no facts to back it up.

Grüße,

Boris

If St. Botolph's area was under a lot of observation, it's so close to Mitre Square that one would think Mitre Square would be too hot for JtR, but clearly it wasn't given the proximity. I don't disagree that it might have been observed more frequently than other locations, but there doesn't seem to have been a permanent stake out of the location. Also, there's no reason why JtR should be suspicious in his appearance, and given his ability to continue to find victims after Annie, some reason to think he did not come across as suspicious.

Anyway, St. Botolph's is on Houndsditch, which I think is mentioned by the PC when they say she turned left from the police station (something like "turned left and headed towards Houndsditch"), but I could be mistaken about that and don't have my notes on hand. If my memory serves, though, it may be the PC presumed she was heading to Houndsditch because, well, that's where the unfortunates go after all. Of course, it could also just be because it was the major street and was just being used as a well known landmark.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Except PC Watkins was patrolling Mitre Square at about 1:30, and Lawende et al sighted the Church Passage couple between 1:33 and 1:35 (based on Leve and Lawende's statements, respectively). Lawende et al were waiting for the rain to stop before leaving the club, so given they estimated a leaving time of between 1:33 and 1:35, it appears that's roughly when the rain let up enough for them to move on. So, while it is possible JtR and Eddowes entered Mitre Square from either Mitre Street or St. James place, it seems improbable to me for them to enter the square before the rain let up no matter which entrance they chose. And, if they came in from St. James, even less probable given it was covered and so better sheltered.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that the CPC were Eddowes and JtR, only suggesting that it seems improbable for Eddowes and JtR to have entered Mitre Square much before 1:33-1:35 from any direction.

And remember, when Lawende et al exit the club, and note the CPC, they then turn away from the couple, so from that point on, they are not facing the CPC so that is the point in time which is unaccounted for - meaning, at any point thereafter the CPC could move into Mitre Square. That, of course, just means we can't rule them out, it isn't a claim to prove the CPC must have been Eddowes and JtR. I'm only emphasizing that last bit to avoid confusion as in the past I've not made it clear to some and they misinterpret my intentions on that point and think I'm claiming I know what time the CPC moved on (I don't, I only know the start of the time window when they could have moved on) or that the CPC must be Eddowes and JtR (they might not be, they could be Bill and Sally). There is evidence to suggest they could be, but nothing, alas, is definitive (Lawende's identification based upon similar looking clothes is not particularly strong evidence after all).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff
I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.

But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
I agree with you on the point that if the couple seen by Lawende were Eddowes and the killer at a time between 1.33-1.35am. We have nothing to show what time they moved from where they were standing into the square.There are some researchers who will want to use the earliest time in order for the time the killer had with the victim to show that the killer had sufficient time to do all that he is purported to have done to the victim.

But the reality is that the later the couple moved into the square the less time the killer would have had with the victim, and then that raises the question did the killer do all that he is purported to have done in the time he had?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, after the Lawende et al sighting the CPC's activities are unaccounted for. They could have moved off immediately, or later. We know PC Harvey makes no mention of them when he later patrols Church Passage, so I think it's reasonable to presume they've moved off by that point in time, but we have no definitive proof of where they went, or even if they went anywhere together. At most we have Lawende's weak identification, but that's hardly definitive. If we run with that, then the women goes into Mitre Square. If we also decide the man was JtR, then we conclude he went into Mitre Square as well (again, none of this is solid ground, but it is one possibility of course). When they went into Mitre Square also cannot be known for sure, other than it was sometime after 1:33. And given PC Watkins finds the body at 1:44, we know JtR has left by that point, leaving roughly 11 minutes unaccounted for. We can probably narrow that based upon PC Harvey's patrol of Church Passage at around 1:41, although the actions of Peter Sutcliff (who crouched and hid with victims to wait out the approach of police and passers by) makes me a wee bit cautious about stating that too strongly. Still, I can't see him sticking around much longer, and even if he did "wait it out", he wasn't engaged in any mutilations during that time, indicating he was probably finished the mutilations that had occurred by that time. What inferences one draws from what we know are, of course, left to each of us.

- Jeff