Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[jerryd]

So why do you suppose he is taking the longer way home?
Also, what would be the quickest direction home for Lawende (45 Norfolk Road, Dalston) and Harris?

Harry Harris, most likely, would have walked with Levy up Aldgate High Street until Levy turned up to Hutchinson Street. Then he would continue on up to Castle Alley, where he lived.

I have often wondered where Lawende was headed? I believe he had an office near Mitre Square, IIRC, but to travel to Dalston at that time of night seems odd to me. At one time he lived near Albert Bachert in Goodman's Field. Perhaps he still had friends in the area to bunk with?

Edit: I thought Dalston was further away. Google maps has it about 2 1/2 miles or so away. So, he would have headed the opposite direction as I think the train station was closed?

[DJA]

Lawende had been manufacturing cigarettes at St. Mary Axe.

Ironically the same street as the Baltic Exchange.

[DJA]

Um ..... would you believe 79 Fenchurch Street,according to Inspector McWilliam.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi.
I don't think Andrew has mixed up Berner St with Mitre Square. He's transposed Schwartz statement, because obviously there's a conspiracy. Or Schwartz is the ripper, if it's not Diemschutz. Or something. Try as I might, I can't fathom out what he's getting at. It's all getting a bit "Pierresque". So I think you're stance is the right one. If he's not going to explain anything in simple terms, leave him to it.

Or failing that, NBFN, how about just throwing some theories out there? I actually like alot of the little details you pick up on and what's the forum for if not sharing ideas and opinions? Please, don't let your researching devolve into "I know something, but I can't tell you yet". Personally, I'm a bit cinical at times, but there are good reasons for picking apart the testimonies surrounding the 'double event', lots of people, lots of statements and far more questions than answers. But seriously, if you've got an idea that's a bit out of left field or such, great. I'd like to hear it.

Respectfully Yours.

Okay, I'll take that onboard.
However, it's not as simple as 'here's my pick for JtR', explained in one or two sentences.
Might take a far bit more work to fill in the gaps and deal with the weaker points, before I put my cards on the table.
Besides, neither of the two I'm currently looking at are Polish Jews, or old enough to kill in 1873, so I'm probably wrong anyway.

As for throwing out some theories, haven't I already done that recently, in this thread?
Who is right, Jeff or myself?

By the way, who is Pierre?

[Abby Normal]

Okay, I'll take that onboard.
However, it's not as simple as 'here's my pick for JtR', explained in one or two sentences.
Might take a far bit more work to fill in the gaps and deal with the weaker points, before I put my cards on the table.
Besides, neither of the two I'm currently looking at are Polish Jews, or old enough to kill in 1873, so I'm probably wrong anyway.

As for throwing out some theories, haven't I already done that recently, in this thread?
Who is right, Jeff or myself?

By the way, who is Pierre?

your mama. lol. so you have no workable theory, no suspects, nothing ...
just alot of hot air. sigh. file another one under who gives a rats ass simon wood pierre trevor maybrick bull shnikey.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lacks patience

[Abby Normal]

Lacks patience

yaaaaaaaaaaaawn. lacks substance

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks for the response.

So, a Kosminski/Levy theory? Levy being a distraction?

Definitely maybe, but we should check the on the descriptions...

Kosminski: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.
[The Star] ...about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat.

Levy: age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.
[The Star] ...taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red.

Are these a good fit?

By the way, it's interesting how close PC Smith gets to the description of the first man in the Star, other than the mustache...

He was about 5ft. 7in.
He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.
His clothes were dark. The coat was a cutaway coat.
He had no whiskers, but I did not notice him much.
I should say he was twenty-eight years of age.
He was of respectable appearance, but I could not state what he was.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

As for throwing out some theories, haven't I already done that recently, in this thread?
Who is right, Jeff or myself?

:

Hi NBFN,
I'll wait till you play your cards then. Who do I thinks right, you or Jeff? We'll, it's not about who's right, it's about prising out details and interpreting them, a strong point of Jeff's I might add. Levy's account merits scrutiny, it's always assumed all three left as one, but maybe Levy did go alone? Then there's the timings, the PC's beats etc. It's an area that's gone over more than most the 'double', ironic given that Stride is the most likely non canonical. Or maybe because of? At any rate, if your looking to work out plausible possible scenarios, your in good company with Mr Hamm. He'll keep you grounded.

And if you want a theory dissected with ruthless wit, email it to Lord Orsam.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Harry Harris, most likely, would have walked with Levy up Aldgate High Street until Levy turned up to Hutchinson Street. Then he would continue on up to Castle Alley, where he lived.

I have often wondered where Lawende was headed? I believe he had an office near Mitre Square, IIRC, but to travel to Dalston at that time of night seems odd to me. At one time he lived near Albert Bachert in Goodman's Field. Perhaps he still had friends in the area to bunk with?

Edit: I thought Dalston was further away. Google maps has it about 2 1/2 miles or so away. So, he would have headed the opposite direction as I think the train station was closed?

Thanks Jerry, this got me thinking!

Perhaps my confrontation story is mostly right, except for one important detail...

Read Sir Robert again:

Having regard to the interest attaching to this case, I am almost tempted to disclose the identity of the murderer and of the pressman who wrote the letter above referred to. But no public benefit would result from such a course, and the traditions of my old department would suffer. I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him ; but he refused to give evidence against him.

In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact. And my words are meant to specify race, not religion. For it would outrage all religious sentiment to talk of the religion of a loathsome creature whose utterly unmentionable vices reduced him to a lower level than that of the brute.

[CB Wiki] Joseph Lawende was born on 9 February 1847 in Warsaw, the son of Hersch Lawende and Zirle, his wife.

The Polish Jew Anderson refers to, is not the suspect - it's the witness who was confronted with the suspect: Joseph Lawende!

But wait, there's more...

The religion of the loathsome creature: Atheist!

Anderson's writing on the Ripper, contains several hints and clues to his identity.

[Abby Normal]

levy didnt know sailor man. if he did he would have either turned him in or not admitted he said anything disparaging about him when he spoke to police. no his behavior and what he said is innocuous and typical for a witness who dosnt want to get involved.

[Abby Normal]

lol. now thats funny.

[JeffHamm]

So why do you suppose he is taking the longer way home?

The difference in distances is quite small (50 feet; at an average walking speed, that's about 11 seconds), so effectively they're the same physical distance. However, it involves more turns, and people perceive routes with more turns as being longer. The alternative route is along less major streets, which, given he's expressed some concern about the people he sees at night (the characters, as he calls them), avoiding the back roads makes sense.

Also, what would be the quickest direction home for Lawende (45 Norfolk Road, Dalston) and Harris?

I can't locate Norfolk Road in Dalston. The only Norfolk Road I've found is about 5.1 miles to the North West and is about 1 hour 36 minutes walk, but Dalston is to the North about 50 minutes walk, but I haven't found a Norfolk Road there yet. But, to head in that direction from Mitre Square going down to Aldgate, then east to Commercial Street, and heading north makes perfect sense.

This sentence - Left there to go out at 1/2 past one and we left the house about 5 minutes later. - needs a bit of interpretation.
They cannot leave twice, and I seriously wonder how long they stayed inside after getting up to leave at 1:30.
Did the rain really stop bang on the half hour?
Did one of them notice the CPC, through a window at the front of the club?
Why did the CPC even attract their attention, if they never dwelt outside the club, but just continued to walk up Duke St, away from the couple?
Seems they picked up quite a lot of detail, in just a few seconds, without looking back over their shoulders.

I think the "leaving twice" is being a bit overly literal. They got up to leave at 1:30, and moved on from the property about 5 minutes later according to Lawende. It seems to me that the wait reflects them waiting for the rain to let up before moving on, so it doesn't appear the rain stopped at the half hour, but a few minutes later.

There's no mention of any of them noticing the CPC prior to them exiting the club to leave.

The CPC didn't attract their attention, neither Levy nor Lawende indicate they paid any specific attention to them other than to note their presence. From Levy's statement about not liking to walk home alone those characters are about, suggests they interpreted the CPC as something other than a respectable couple, which would be consistent with them interpreting them as a prostitute and client, which would be consistent with the notion that Eddowes may have been engaging in casual prostitution that night and the CPC being Eddowes and JtR (although that's all tenuous, consistent with a theory isn't the same thing as proof of the theory, after all). They aren't giving Hutchinson levels of detail.

Lawende in the MA:

You're interpreting this sentence - I walked a little further from the others. - to mean that Lawende walked somewhat separately to the other two.
That seems to be the standard interpretation, but I take it as meaning he puts a small distance between himself and the others, before they stop.
If Lawende meant he walked apart from the others, he would have said just that - I walked a little apart from the others.
On the other hand, if Lawende did walk (along) further from the others, he is therefore further from the CPC than the others.
So he would presumably see the least, but instead he sees the most. How can that be?

Having had a look at where Dalston is (about 50 minutes walk), he could also mean he had a longer distance to walk home that night than the others, though that would requiring interpreting the phrasing "from the others" to mean something like "than the others". I'm not sure if that's just in my head, though. I'm unaware of Harris' address, so not sure where he was heading to. He doesn't appear at the inquest as far as I can tell.

'I'm off' - sounds fairly conclusive to me, but why doesn't Levy stay with the other's (assuming he goes separately), when he sounds a little apprehensive?
It's really quite a contradiction, and how could Levy be off (on his own), if Lawende walks further from the others?

The "I'm off" statement does not appear in the official inquest record, or in The Times coverage. Given your points above that indicate it doesn't make sense, and the lack of consistency of its reporting, it seems likely it's just an example of newspaper unreliability with regards to exact wording. I place the greatest emphasis on the official inquest records, and when those are missing, tend to go with The Times coverage (because those were stored by the police and are in the official files, so are reproduced in "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion" (an excellent source book). However, for a proper analysis, one should gather all of the various reports and try and distill the commonalities while flagging the sole instances. The former being the more reliable ideas and the latter being viewed with great caution, bordering on suspicion. Also, far greater emphasis should be placed upon reports from the inquest than with witnesses interviewed by the press on other occasions, people are more likely to be overly certain when recounting things when not under oath, or doing so in an official capacity - it's our tendency to be story tellers, and being definite makes for a better story.

I would really like to know what other people following this thread, think about all this.

I'm sure you'll get more comments

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

The Polish Jew Anderson refers to, is not the suspect - it's the witness who was confronted with the suspect: Joseph Lawende!

No, Anderson was referring to the suspect, not the witness.

[JeffHamm]

Harry Harris, most likely, would have walked with Levy up Aldgate High Street until Levy turned up to Hutchinson Street. Then he would continue on up to Castle Alley, where he lived.

I have often wondered where Lawende was headed? I believe he had an office near Mitre Square, IIRC, but to travel to Dalston at that time of night seems odd to me. At one time he lived near Albert Bachert in Goodman's Field. Perhaps he still had friends in the area to bunk with?

Edit: I thought Dalston was further away. Google maps has it about 2 1/2 miles or so away. So, he would have headed the opposite direction as I think the train station was closed?

Yes, Dalston is about a 50 minute walk to the north. But, given the time of night, travelling along the major streets would be prudent, and heading down to Aldgate then over to Commercial Street and then going north would make sense if he was heading there. I just can't find a Norfolk Road in the Dalston area though.

I didn't know Harris lived in Castle Alley. Was that reported somewhere, or has he been tracked down in a census?

- Jeff