Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Joshua Rogan]

Dr Browns testimony
—“The bladder was in no way injured in the body, and I may mention that a man accustomed to remove the portions removed was asked by me to do so as quickly as possible. He accomplished the task in three minutes, but not without injuring the bladder”

Cheers. Is that from a newspaper report or official testimony? I haven't got my books at the mo so can't find it myself.

[Trevor Marriott]

Cheers. Is that from a newspaper report or official testimony? I haven't got my books at the mo so can't find it myself.

Inquest testimony

But of course we do not know under what conditions the test was carried out

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

Morning Jeff
So how often do you believe Sequeira went and stood in the naughty corner to check the lighting on his jaunts through the square?
If, as you say , it was harder to see into it from other locations then you must believe Sequeira had a habit of walking into that dark corner ?
where as in reality , somebody passing through would walk diagonally straight across from coming out of church passage towards the main entrance .They wouldn't walk right into that corner, no need .

We've already ascertained there were police lamps shining in the corner by the time of his arrival so this incredible judgement of his had to come from other nights (when the lamp may have been working and the moon shining)

I just think it's a trivial matter for someone who was there to judge the lighting conditions. When Holland returned with Dr. Sequeira there was only PC Watkins and PC Havey at the scene. The only lights would be their bulls eye lanterns, and they would be securing the area, not staring at the body. He could assess the area because he was there.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi packers stem,



I just think it's a trivial matter for someone who was there to judge the lighting conditions. When Holland returned with Dr. Sequeira there was only PC Watkins and PC Havey at the scene. The only lights would be their bulls eye lanterns, and they would be securing the area, not staring at the body. He could assess the area because he was there.

Yes Jeff. As I posted earlier, Halse testified that when he arrived he "had the light of Watkins turned on the body", which seems to show that Watkins wasn't just stood illuminating the corner like a human angle-poise, even after Sequeira arrived.

[DJA]

So how often do you believe Sequeira went and stood in the naughty corner to check the lighting on his jaunts through the square?
If, as you say , it was harder to see into it from other locations then you must believe Sequeira had a habit of walking into that dark corner ?
where as in reality , somebody passing through would walk diagonally straight across from coming out of church passage towards the main entrance .They wouldn't walk right into that corner, no need .

Perhaps Sequeira used to pop in to see a fellow surgeon when spending the night at 6 Mitre Square,instead of returning to Sevenoaks.
If they exited by the backyard for dinner or drinks,he would be familiar with the lack of lighting.
Pretty sure he was employed at the London Hospital at one stage.

[packers stem]

Hi packers stem,



I just think it's a trivial matter for someone who was there to judge the lighting conditions. When Holland returned with Dr. Sequeira there was only PC Watkins and PC Havey at the scene. The only lights would be their bulls eye lanterns, and they would be securing the area, not staring at the body. He could assess the area because he was there.

- Jeff

Evening Jeff

Oh you can be quite sure that the lamps of Watkins, Holland and possibly Morris would have been trained on the body whilst Sequeira was checking for life .
Why you would think otherwise is beyond me .

I can't see them leaving him in the dark .
Remember Morris went back in to fetch his own lamp when Watkins first came to the warehouse door .Morris knew how dark it was.

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

Evening Jeff

Oh you can be quite sure that the lamps of Watkins, Holland and possibly Morris would have been trained on the body whilst Sequeira was checking for life .
Why you would think otherwise is beyond me .

I can't see them leaving him in the dark .
Remember Morris went back in to fetch his own lamp when Watkins first came to the warehouse door .Morris knew how dark it was.

Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

Hi packers stem,



Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.

- Jeff

But they did while he checked for life .
So it's irrelevant to our discussion.
He needn't have asked them to had it been light enough for kidney removal.
Pronouncing life extinct should be a cake walk without the lamps shouldn't it ?

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

But they did while he checked for life .
So it's irrelevant to our discussion.
He needn't have asked them to had it been light enough for kidney removal.
Pronouncing life extinct should be a cake walk without the lamps shouldn't it ?

No, I really don't think he was checking a body that had been split open with the intestines pulled out for "signs of life", that's plainly absurd. Rather, he was examining the body to get details of the injuries inflicted as they appeared at the crime scene, which would require better light, while JtR, who wasn't concerned with the damage he inflicted, would not require.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Hi packers stem,



No, I really don't think he was checking a body that had been split open with the intestines pulled out for "signs of life", that's plainly absurd. Rather, he was examining the body to get details of the injuries inflicted as they appeared at the crime scene, which would require better light, while JtR, who wasn't concerned with the damage he inflicted, would not require.

- Jeff

Well, having your intestines removed from your abdomen isnt immediately fatal, nor is a throat cut..or 2 cuts. These things take at least a bit of time to prove fatal. Just saying that making sure the heart has stopped might have been realistic.

[packers stem]

Well, having your intestines removed from your abdomen isnt immediately fatal, nor is a throat cut..or 2 cuts. These things take at least a bit of time to prove fatal. Just saying that making sure the heart has stopped might have been realistic.

It is the normal procedure isn't it Michael
However bizarre it may appear to us , they have to pronounce life extinct .
Just as at the inquests they confirm that the wounds could not be self inflicted

[JeffHamm]

It is the normal procedure isn't it Michael
However bizarre it may appear to us , they have to pronounce life extinct .
Just as at the inquests they confirm that the wounds could not be self inflicted

A technicality, and not one that required any additional light, which is what you were implying the light request was for.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

A technicality, and not one that required any additional light, which is what you were implying the light request was for.

- Jeff

Jeff
You are talking about Halse saying he asked Watkins to turn his light onto the body .....
so that he could see the body .
Halse arrived on the scene a good ten minutes after Sequeira
This will be because , as a detective , he didn't have a lamp to shine so he could see the body .
it's ridiculous to think that Watkins lamp and eyes would have been fixed on the body from 1.44 until 2.05

Once Sequiera had examined the body the chances are they would turn away and talk about the circumstances with Holland rather than stare at a harrowing sight any longer than necessary

Morning advertiser 12th

"I had the light of Watkins turned on the body, and saw that it was a murder"

So Halse needed Watkins light just to confirm there was actually a murdered body there .Never mind cutting kidneys out !

It would be foolish to surmise that Watkins didn't do precisely the same for Sequeira .
I'm not sure what your point is

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

Jeff
You are talking about Halse saying he asked Watkins to turn his light onto the body .....
so that he could see the body .
Halse arrived on the scene a good ten minutes after Sequeira
This will be because , as a detective , he didn't have a lamp to shine so he could see the body .
it's ridiculous to think that Watkins lamp and eyes would have been fixed on the body from 1.44 until 2.05

Once Sequiera had examined the body the chances are they would turn away and talk about the circumstances with Holland rather than stare at a harrowing sight any longer than necessary

Morning advertiser 12th

"I had the light of Watkins turned on the body, and saw that it was a murder"

So Halse needed Watkins light just to confirm there was actually a murdered body there .Never mind cutting kidneys out !

It would be foolish to surmise that Watkins didn't do precisely the same for Sequeira .
I'm not sure what your point is

You really need to keep track of the conversation and not just react in away that tries to deflect.
To make it easy, I’ll put it all here, take particular note of post 651, by you, which started this recent discussion:
--------------------
You: post 651
Evening Jeff

Oh you can be quite sure that the lamps of Watkins, Holland and possibly Morris would have been trained on the body whilst Sequeira was checking for life .
Why you would think otherwise is beyond me .
--------------------
Meost 652
Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.
----------------------------
You: Post 656
It is the normal procedure isn't it Michael
However bizarre it may appear to us , they have to pronounce life extinct .
Just as at the inquests they confirm that the wounds could not be self inflicted
---------------------------
Me: Post 657
A technicality, and not one that required any additional light, which is what you were implying the light request was for.
---------------------------
You: Post 658
Jeff
You are talking about Halse saying he asked Watkins to turn his light onto the body .....
so that he could see the body .
Halse arrived on the scene a good ten minutes after Sequeira
--------------------------
So no, I’m not talking about Halse asking to look at the body, I’m talking about your original claim that Sequeira needed the lights to check for signs of life. I pointed out he requested the lights, meaning they were not originally on the body, so he could easily have assessed the lighting conditions. Also, I pointed out that checking for signs of life in this case is absurd, and a technical requirement that medical personelle officially declare life extinct. Trying to now say I’m off base and claim I’m talking about something I’ve never mentioned (Halse) is a rhetorical ploy and an attempt to confuse and misdirect rather than accept it is your claim of the lighting that is under evaluation.
But nice try.
- Jeff

[packers stem]

Hi Jeff

it was not a deliberate attempt to confuse anything .
I'm unaware of any mention by Sequeira of asking for the light to be shone on the body .
If you find it please post it here .... thanks in advance .
Halse did , he wanted to confirm that there was indeed a murder victim on the ground .

I would like to believe that Holland ,Watkins and probably Morris decided to ignore that Dr Sequeira wanted to check blood vessels etc without light , I really would but silly me , I keep suspecting that when the good doctor was knelt over the body they would take it upon themselves to shine the lamps for him .
Maybe when he arrived they just turned them off and turned them back on only when Halse questioned them as to the location of the body

Morning Advertiser 12th


For how long do you think the life would have been extinct? - I arrived at that in a very few minutes. Probably not more than a quarter of an hour. I could tell from the condition of the blood and the blood vessels.