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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Dr Sequeira did not say these words... 'there was sufficient light''

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    • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
      Dr Sequeira did not say these words... 'there was sufficient light''
      Inquest testimony

      but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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      • Nor these words '' he was not possessed of any great anatomical skill '' but people keep quoting this statement as if it were his.

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        • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
          Nor these words '' he was not possessed of any great anatomical skill '' but people keep quoting this statement as if it were his.
          Same inquest testimony

          . He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill.”

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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          • Both statements were made by Mr. Crawford, City Solicitor, again watched the case on behalf of the police. So Mr Crawford had no right to make a medical opinion on eddows murder and i dont see anywhere that says he was there at Mitre Square on the night she was killed.

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            • Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon, of No. 34, Jewry-street, Aldgate, deposed: On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body, and I entirely agree with the evidence of Dr. Gordon Brown in that respect.
              By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed. I think that the murderer had no design on any particular organ of the body. He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill.
              [Coroner] Can you account for the absence of noise? - The death must have been instantaneous after the severance of the windpipe and the blood-vessels.
              [Coroner] Would you have expected the murderer to be bespattered with blood? - Not necessarily.
              [Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                This questions Dr Sequeira stating there was sufficient light, and by that I take his 3 minutes to mean enough light to carry out the murder, and mutilations, but nothing else.

                Victorian street lamps only emitted a downward beam of light which lit no more than a small area around the base of the lamp. That is why street prostitutes through the ages have been pictured standing under a street lamp plying their trade.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                Absolutely
                I've stated time and again that Sequeira's assertion is useless unless he was there that night just before the supposed TOD

                You can't have a blanket (it's light enough there ) , there are many factors.
                Not least lunar cycle and cloud cover .
                The poorly burning lamp only adds to this
                You can lead a horse to water.....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                  Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon, of No. 34, Jewry-street, Aldgate, deposed: On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body, and I entirely agree with the evidence of Dr. Gordon Brown in that respect.
                  By Mr. Crawford: I am well acquainted with the locality and the position of the lamps in the square. Where the murder was committed was probably the darkest part of the square, but there was sufficient light to enable the miscreant to perpetrate the deed. I think that the murderer had no design on any particular organ of the body. He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill.
                  [Coroner] Can you account for the absence of noise? - The death must have been instantaneous after the severance of the windpipe and the blood-vessels.
                  [Coroner] Would you have expected the murderer to be bespattered with blood? - Not necessarily.
                  [Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour.
                  Fishy , where the testimony states
                  'by Crawford' all it means is that the witness was directing his comments towards Crawford .
                  You'll sometimes see 'by the jury'..... meaning he was looking towards the jury when he said it
                  You can lead a horse to water.....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                    Fishy , where the testimony states
                    'by Crawford' all it means is that the witness was directing his comments towards Crawford .
                    You'll sometimes see 'by the jury'..... meaning he was looking towards the jury when he said it
                    Yes, packers stem has it, "by x" means the answer is the witness replying to a question "by X". Unfortunately, as the inquest testimony was recorded by hand in long form, they didn't record the questions (as the purpose was to record the witness statements, not the questions). Some papers, apparently because the reporters could take short hand, did preserve some of the questions as well (as per above, where coroner is in brackets and we can read the question as well as the reply, which follows the dash.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                      Absolutely
                      I've stated time and again that Sequeira's assertion is useless unless he was there that night just before the supposed TOD

                      You can't have a blanket (it's light enough there ) , there are many factors.
                      Not least lunar cycle and cloud cover .
                      The poorly burning lamp only adds to this
                      Dr. Seqeuira was there that night, he was the first medical personnel at the scene. Even in the darkest corner it is not going to be pitch black. It will be harder to see into it from other locations because the other locations have more light, and looking from a brighter area into a darker area is much harder than vice versa. If you get out to a beach, one without lots of lighting around, at night, even on a cloudy night with no moon, you can see things right in front of you. I'm not saying it would be ideal, or that there wouldn't be difficult for JtR to do what he did, but it's not the impossible thing you seem to think it would be. And after all, JtR made a pretty bad job of it. He damaged her bowel, missed a larger portion of the uterus, damaged the liver, spleen, etc. If she was killed and mutilated elsewhere, with more light, unlimited time, by someone with surgical skills, it would have been a much more surgical looking process. It was a hack job done quickly in the dark, and as a result, there was all sorts of excess damage in the process.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        Regarding lamps in the square:
                        Cheers jerry. That report casts a different light on the matter....perhaps that's where the Times got their "it is stated"?
                        I will now unstick my guns.
                        ​​​​​​

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                          Dr. Seqeuira was there that night, he was the first medical personnel at the scene. Even in the darkest corner it is not going to be pitch black. It will be harder to see into it from other locations because the other locations have more light, and looking from a brighter area into a darker area is much harder than vice versa. If you get out to a beach, one without lots of lighting around, at night, even on a cloudy night with no moon, you can see things right in front of you. I'm not saying it would be ideal, or that there wouldn't be difficult for JtR to do what he did, but it's not the impossible thing you seem to think it would be. And after all, JtR made a pretty bad job of it. He damaged her bowel, missed a larger portion of the uterus, damaged the liver, spleen, etc. If she was killed and mutilated elsewhere, with more light, unlimited time, by someone with surgical skills, it would have been a much more surgical looking process. It was a hack job done quickly in the dark, and as a result, there was all sorts of excess damage in the process.

                          - Jeff
                          But if you are going to remove an organ, why hack at it and only take half doesnt seem logical, what good is half?

                          But remember he didn't damage the bladder, which in the grand scheme of things is an important factor, bearing in mind Dr Browns expert in female anatomy was unable to effect a full removal without damaging the bladder

                          And I am still puzzled as to why Dr Brown asked an expert to see how long it would take, that would suggest to me had had concerns over the timings just as we have 130 years later, and quite rightly so

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                            Dr Browns expert in female anatomy was unable to effect a full removal without damaging the bladder
                            Trevor, this is the third time you've stated this as fact. I'd be interested in seeing the source for your assertion because I don't remember reading that anywhere except in your posts.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                              Dr. Seqeuira was there that night, he was the first medical personnel at the scene. Even in the darkest corner it is not going to be pitch black. It will be harder to see into it from other locations because the other locations have more light, and looking from a brighter area into a darker area is much harder than vice versa. If you get out to a beach, one without lots of lighting around, at night, even on a cloudy night with no moon, you can see things right in front of you. I'm not saying it would be ideal, or that there wouldn't be difficult for JtR to do what he did, but it's not the impossible thing you seem to think it would be. And after all, JtR made a pretty bad job of it. He damaged her bowel, missed a larger portion of the uterus, damaged the liver, spleen, etc. If she was killed and mutilated elsewhere, with more light, unlimited time, by someone with surgical skills, it would have been a much more surgical looking process. It was a hack job done quickly in the dark, and as a result, there was all sorts of excess damage in the process.

                              - Jeff
                              Morning Jeff
                              So how often do you believe Sequeira went and stood in the naughty corner to check the lighting on his jaunts through the square?
                              If, as you say , it was harder to see into it from other locations then you must believe Sequeira had a habit of walking into that dark corner ?
                              where as in reality , somebody passing through would walk diagonally straight across from coming out of church passage towards the main entrance .They wouldn't walk right into that corner, no need .

                              We've already ascertained there were police lamps shining in the corner by the time of his arrival so this incredible judgement of his had to come from other nights (when the lamp may have been working and the moon shining)
                              You can lead a horse to water.....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                                Trevor, this is the third time you've stated this as fact. I'd be interested in seeing the source for your assertion because I don't remember reading that anywhere except in your posts.
                                Dr Browns testimony
                                —“The bladder was in no way injured in the body, and I may mention that a man accustomed to remove the portions removed was asked by me to do so as quickly as possible. He accomplished the task in three minutes, but not without injuring the bladder”

                                I also note that Dr Brown states at least 5 mins to do all that was required, yet he makes no attempt himself to put it to the test but calls in another doctor, definitely concerned about the timings !

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 06-13-2019, 10:41 AM.

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