Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Fishy,



As I said before, I think Sam's time line starts late by a couple minutes. You haven't shifted it, so not surprising those times don't work. I've not tried guesstimate how long each phase of the murder would take as I do not have the expertise to do so, but the medical testimony of the day said 5 minutes (which is what I present above) though some modern medical experts have suggested as little as 2-3 minutes. But all you're doing here is showing times that don't work, so shift everything earlier.
1:36:00 Blitz attack begins with manual stranglulation to unconciousness
1:36:15 Eddowes unconscious, laid to ground
1:36:17 Throat is cut
1:36:47 Facial cuts complete, abdominal mutilations being

And you've now got over 4 minutes remaining for a hack job of the kidney and uterus removal.

- Jeff

I again submit what Dr Biggs a modern day forensic pathologists say in relation to this

In my opinion it would not be the skill that would be needed, but the level of anatomical knowledge, which would determine the time needed at the crime scene to effect these removals. If the killer did remove the organs then he must have had sufficient anatomical knowledge otherwise he would not have had the time to search for the organs, and work out how to remove them within that “at least five minute window” as stated by Dr Brown.

Mr Neale also opines that the abdomen of Eddowes was opened in a way not conducive with someone with anatomical knowledge,

As to this butcher slaughter theory Paul Langford a modern day master butcher who started his career in an abattoir states

"If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen. This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were in relation to where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

The full interviews of both Mr Neale and Mr Langford can be found in my book "Jack the Ripper the real truth" https://amzn.to/2JEemVa

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Fishy,



As I said before, I think Sam's time line starts late by a couple minutes. You haven't shifted it, so not surprising those times don't work. I've not tried guesstimate how long each phase of the murder would take as I do not have the expertise to do so, but the medical testimony of the day said 5 minutes (which is what I present above) though some modern medical experts have suggested as little as 2-3 minutes. But all you're doing here is showing times that don't work, so shift everything earlier.
1:36:00 Blitz attack begins with manual stranglulation to unconciousness
1:36:15 Eddowes unconscious, laid to ground
1:36:17 Throat is cut
1:36:47 Facial cuts complete, abdominal mutilations being

And you've now got over 4 minutes remaining for a hack job of the kidney and uterus removal.

- Jeff

But you dont know what time they arrived at the murder location and that is the determining factor, because of that you have to look at all times from 1.36am- to perhaps as late as 1.39am. Hard as it may be, you can only work with the times as given by the witnesses, we dont know if clocks,watches were fast or slow. You cannot hypothesize on that basis to fit a theory.

The only argument could be how long it would have taken the couple to walk from where they were seen to the murder location. some say 30 seconds. I can say that I walked it ambling along and that took just under a minute, at normal walking pace 30 seconds.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

I again submit what Dr Biggs a modern day forensic pathologists say in relation to this

In my opinion it would not be the skill that would be needed, but the level of anatomical knowledge, which would determine the time needed at the crime scene to effect these removals. If the killer did remove the organs then he must have had sufficient anatomical knowledge otherwise he would not have had the time to search for the organs, and work out how to remove them within that “at least five minute window” as stated by Dr Brown.

Yes, that seems in line with the contemporary view as well, that JtR had a fair bit of anatomical knowledge.

Mr Neale also opines that the abdomen of Eddowes was opened in a way not conducive with someone with anatomical knowledge,

As to this butcher slaughter theory Paul Langford a modern day master butcher who started his career in an abattoir states

"If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen. This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were in relation to where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

The full interviews of both Mr Neale and Mr Langford can be found in my book "Jack the Ripper the real truth" https://amzn.to/2JEemVa

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I think some of the things that JtR did, like risk cutting himself, partly reflects the fact that he's someone willing to butcher a woman in the street, while the concerns that those us who are not so inclined would have are ones JtR appears to put less weight upon. I would be surprised if JtR didn't have self inflicted cuts on his hands, actually, as those are quite common in knife murders. The killer often ends up cutting their own hand, which is often a piece of evidence that helps identify them.

I don't know if the medical reports on Eddowes would be consistent with the kidney being pulled out, but I seem to recall that the renal artery is described as having been cut.

While it seems incredible, even at the widest time window, there's still very little time for what JtR did - and while we may find it hard to believe he had time to do it, well, he clearly did.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

As I've said a few times now, I'm not assuming any of the clocks are fast or slow in that analysis. That analysis is based upon the unlikely assumption that every clock is exactly in sync because you've objected to "too many what ifs and maybe's".

And while I don't know what time they arrived in the square, I do know that PC Harvey patrolled Church passage at 1:41 (at the earliest), which probably caused JtR to leave at that point in time.

And sticking with the evidence as stated, I know the murder required 5 minutes, so that means the couple had to arrive at the crime scene no later than 1:36.

And I do know the Church Passage Couple were last spotted at the Duke Street End at 1:35.

That means I know I have only 1 minute for the couple to get from whereever they are to the crime scene in order for the murder to start no later than 1:36.

And I do know, through simple calculations, that to get from the Duke Street end of Church Passage to the crime scene at an average walking pace only requires 30 seconds, which is only half the time available.

And unless there's some evidence that the couple walked slowly, that's just trying to insert a "what if" or "maybe" because without evidence the starting point for any analysis has to be the average, in this case the average walking speed. Furthermore, if the Church Passage Couple was Eddowes and JtR, the evidence tells us they probably didn't walk at your "might have been a slow pace" unless you are suggesting they left the very second Lawende and company walked past them. Otherwise, you're explanation of "if they walked at a slow pace" doesn't fit the very strict criterion with regards to the time that you've required me to work with. But, sure, if you want to imagine them ambling along at half the average walking speed they could have used that whole minute up to get there.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

While it seems incredible, even at the widest time window, there's still very little time for what JtR did - and while we may find it hard to believe he had time to do it, well, he clearly did. ... or he clearly did not 1.37 to 1.40 or 141. to 1.43.30 thats more like the time going by witness statements thats of course it was eddows and jtr at church passage which i doubt very very much.

[FISHY1118]

Mitre st entrance entered at 1.33 to 1.40 is more like it , and even that still is only 7 mins . what happened in those 7 mins ?

[Trevor Marriott]

Mitre st entrance entered at 1.33 to 1.40 is more like it , and even that still is only 7 mins . what happened in those 7 mins ?

Even then you cannot be precise because you cannot be certain of the time they entered the square this same principle applies to both your suggestion and the couple seen at Church passage.

The later they entered the square the less time was available to the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

Just saying Trevor, she couldn't have entered the square via mitre st no earlier than 1.32/3 . so yes 1.34 1.35 1.36 .1.37.1.38.1.39 entry is also possible [still not enough time for the murder tho is it ?] after Watkins had to turn right out of the square to continue his route, turning into king st leading up to a st James palace. so now both church passage and mitre st entrances have the same problem . just how did jack inflict all the mutilations place entrails around the body, removing a kidney and a uterus, nick her eyelids strangle her, cut her throat, oh and not to mention keeping her right leg pushed up in the birthing position before he left [ id want her leg in the way to if i were cutting her stomach open to remove her insides to ] just for good measure all in the flipping dark in 5/6 mins .

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

While it seems incredible, even at the widest time window, there's still very little time for what JtR did - and while we may find it hard to believe he had time to do it, well, he clearly did. ... or he clearly did not 1.37 to 1.40 or 141. to 1.43.30 thats more like the time going by witness statements thats of course it was eddows and jtr at church passage which i doubt very very much.

No later than 1:36, and that's not allowing for any margin of error in any of the times we're given. Forget the 1:37, and the 1:40 or 1:41, those are all after the very bare minimum start time of 1:36, with no consideration of clocks being out of sync (which allows, in some configurations, for more time to be added "for free" - I'm not doing that here, but that does make it "easier").

There is enough time according to the doctors of the day (5 minutes) and according to some doctors of today (2-3 minutes).

You and I, without that expertise knowledge, might find that hard to believe, but either you consider your non-expert intuition better than informed knowledge via expertise, or you set aside your ignorance and accept that those who have the expertise to inform you. I do the latter, rightly or wrongly. Where I won't give ground is playing silly buggers with rhetoric, the earliest start time is 1:36, so if you keep trying to push that out I'll call you on it. Not trying to be confrontational on that, just trying to point out, that we need to agree on some things, and the evidence and testimony as given means we should at least agree that the evidence, as given, sets 1:36 as the starting point for discussion. As we expand the bare minimum time window (with the 1 minute gap) we get to distribute time where ever, so the murder could take longer than the 5 minutes that the evidence says we must consider. The journey to crime scene could take longer, and so forth. I'm laying out the tightest timeline from the testimony we have, so any argument that I've over emphasized the "accuracy of the times involed" just makes it easier for the Church Passage Couple to fit into the sequence.

I'm not saying they have to be Eddowes and JtR, the evidence does not allow that conclusion. But the evidence does not allow you to exclude them either.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

....

The later they entered the square the less time was available to the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And you don't see that as informative about maybe when they had to enter the square? Doesn't the fact JtR had to do a bunch of things that require some minimum amount of time not indicate to you that they had to enter the square at least that amount of time before PC Watkins shows up? And probably at least that amount of time before PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage? And given that the doctors at the time give us a 5 minute estimate of that minimum, doesn't that make you think that, given the time PC Harvey states he patrolled Church Passage at 1:41 at the earliest mean that JtR and Eddowes had to have entered no later than 1:36?

So isn't anything that suggests they entered after 1:36 just not worth considering? Isn't that how evidence works?

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,


And while I don't know what time they arrived in the square, I do know that PC Harvey patrolled Church passage at 1:41 (at the earliest), which probably caused JtR to leave at that point in time.

I totally agree on that issue

And sticking with the evidence as stated, I know the murder required 5 minutes, so that means the couple had to arrive at the crime scene no later than 1:36.

But this 5 minute is a myth, Brown stated it could have been longer, and he is probably proved right in saying longer by his own expert who took 3 mins just to remove a uterus.

And I do know the Church Passage Couple were last spotted at the Duke Street End at 1:35.

But we dont know what time they left where they were seen standing not 1.35am possibly 1.36/37/38

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

jeff just keep it simple buddy 1.36 or 1.37 start, its not rocket science . 1.41 till Harvey stands at mitre square the murders just not happening that way. your just not excepting the general medical experts of today, and until someone does what jack was supposed to do in 5 mins no one should believe it can be done . simple .

[FISHY1118]

When it comes to murder, work out what didn't happen, then you can work out what did. Eddows,church passage, 5 mins, is a dead end.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

jeff just keep it simple buddy 1.36 or 1.37 start, its not rocket science . 1.41 till Harvey stands at mitre square the murders just not happening that way. your just not excepting the general medical experts of today, and until someone does what jack was supposed to do in 5 mins no one should believe it can be done . simple .

The evidence we have makes it simple. What I've outlined is the evidence and testimony that we have. It's not rocket science, it's just putting the pieces together. And without even getting into issues like margins of errors, everything fits. Once we start talking about how much times might be out, those issues expand or contract the time window, but because they expand it, it makes it easier to fit. Nothing changes with regards to the fact that the Church Passage Couple cannot be excluded, and that is the only point I'm trying to make.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
Hi Trevor,


And while I don't know what time they arrived in the square, I do know that PC Harvey patrolled Church passage at 1:41 (at the earliest), which probably caused JtR to leave at that point in time.

I totally agree on that issue

Yes, we agree on that

And sticking with the evidence as stated, I know the murder required 5 minutes, so that means the couple had to arrive at the crime scene no later than 1:36.

But this 5 minute is a myth, Brown stated it could have been longer, and he is probably proved right in saying longer by his own expert who took 3 mins just to remove a uterus.

And we have modern medical experts who say the whole thing can be done in less. I'm not entertaining any "might" or "ifs", I'm looking at the testimony we have. You are now arguing that we need to consider "margins of error" in the testimony, but when I tried to do that with clocks you took that card out of play. You can't play it now.

And I do know the Church Passage Couple were last spotted at the Duke Street End at 1:35.

But we dont know what time they left where they were seen standing not 1.35am possibly 1.36/37/38

No we don't, but when we don't allow for margins of error in the times, we can work it out, and 1:36 is where we get with maths. And 1:35 is when they were last seen, and 30 - 36 seconds, is how long maths tell us is required, and we have 60.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk