Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

By Accident or Design? A Critical Analysis of the Murder... RIGHT HERE . ON THE EDDOWS PAGE

Ah, ok. Well, Sam's description of the injuries and pointing out how the mutilations were anything but "careful" (lot's of damage to surrounding organs and tissue), put the lie to how slowly the kidney and uterus removal were done. The time line starts at a 1:37 time for the Lawende et al sighting, which is already 2 minutes too late based upon even Lawende's estimate, and 4 minutes too late based upon Levey's 3 minutes. And, as per a previous post, they got up to leave the club at 1:30, so left as soon as the rain let up, and the Church Passage Couple are only about 15 yards away when they leave, so they times they are estimating (3-5 minutes wait) doesn't require any additional time for them to "get ready".

So that whole time line can just be shifted earlier by a minimum of 2 minutes. Also, there's a 1 minute wait between the sighting and when the proposed couple start to go towards the crime scene. That too is a conservative estimate, there's no need for them to wait a minute. In 10 seconds, at an average walking speed, Lawende and company would be 45 feet beyond the couple, so even they waited for them to pass, a mere 10 seconds would be sufficient. So being really pedantic, that's 10 seconds to reach Church Passage, 10 more seconds to get beyond the couple to a point that they couple could then start a 30 second trip to the crime scene. Meaning, the murder could have started any time between 1:33:50 and 1:35:50 (and that's assuming there was even a 10 second wait by the couple, which I'm only including to indicate that some waiting time can be included, but it doesn't have to be as long as a minute; there is nothing that indicates it has to be even 10 seconds, 5 seconds would still get Lawende and company past them by over 20 feet).

So yes, I think the start time of 1:37 is late. I also don't think it would take 30 seconds to do one long cut along the abdomen and start the mutilations, but I think what Sam was presenting there was rough estimates, generally working in 30 second blocks of time, and not precise estimates of each and every step. His over all coverage and focus is on the skill evidenced by the mutilations, and I think his analysis of that is spot on - that the idea that there was any sort of "surgical precision" being shown is incorrect. The excess damage clearly shows the mutilations were done very rapidly, with lots of mistakes and excess damage to surrounding tissues and organs, and at best show evidence of "anatomical knowledge" of where the organs roughly were but no evidence that specific knowledge of human anatomy was required, or that surgical training was involved.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown ''I believe the perpetrator of the act must have had considerable knowledge of the position of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them. It required a great deal of medical knowledge to have removed the kidney and to know where it was placed. The parts removed would be of no use for any professional purpose.'' ...... you'd probably cut 3 of your fingers off SAM whilst stumbling around in the dark with a sharp knife , your article is way way off the mark buddy, and that time line is just wrong in my opinon.

[FISHY1118]

i dont know what you and sam are reading jeff but ill go with dr brown . IT REQUIRED A GREAT DEAL OF MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Michael,

If this is accepted though Jeff, and we can rely on Watkins estimates, then the margin for error is ridiculously slim. Even if he only takes 5 minutes to do all the mutilations, mark the face, cut the colon and the apron, access the kidney...we still have to get them into the square, have him subdue her...apparently quietly, and kill her with the throat cuts.

Which is exactly what I was focusing on, and as covered in my earlier post, is entirely possible with regards to the Church Passage Couple. Even the most conservative reading of the evidence we have results in a 2 minute time window in which Eddowes and JtR have to enter and be at the crime scene, and the location of the Church Passage Couple is such that they have that opportunity. They are in a position that would allow them to get there.

That 2 minute time window expands to 4 if Levey's estimate of the time of the sighting is used, and it's 3 minutes if we take the average of Levey's and Lawende's estimate. And that time window applies to Eddowes and JtR, for reasons I've covered earlier and won't go through all again here. The Church Passage Couple can reach the crime scene within even the narrowest of those windows.

Even if the Church Passage Couple is not Eddowes and JtR, Eddowes and JtR have to come from somewhere to get to the crime scene location within that time window.

Its so finely orchestrated with the Lawende sighting its seems unrealistic. Sometimes things just work out, I realize that, but on your supposed 4th public kill do you decide to take extra risks?

If Kate is already in the square, perhaps even when Harvey says he looked in, then the few minutes don't seem so crucial to the overall results.

I don't know if he is taking any extra risks. Nicholls is in the open street (at least Mitre Square was an enclosed area, less visible from longer distances), Chapman is in the backyard of a house as the sun is rising, and Stride is next to a busy club where people could come out at any time. Mitre Square, in some respects, is the least risky of those locations in many ways.

As for the orchestration, it's not really all that. Lawende and Levy indicate the rain was coming down hard enough that they waited it out. They leave when that happens and sight the Church Passage Couple. Their sighting therefore timestamps both the Church Passage Couple and the ending of the rain. Eddowes appears to have been killed after the heavy rain stopped (again, covered earlier), so the murder has to happen after the time of the sighting, whether or not the Church Passage Couple is or is not Eddowes and JtR. PC Harvey patrols Church Passage around 1:41 and 1:42 (around which time Morris has also opened the door a bit during his sweeping up). Either of those events would, most probably, result in JtR fleeing the scene. It's not orchestrated in the sense of those events were planned, those events just occurred and we have rough estimates of the time at which they occurred. And given 5 minutes (some modern medical experts have suggested as little as 2-3 minutes would be required for the murder as well, opening up the "wiggle room"), but I've stuck with the 5 minutes in the contemporary evidence.

If 5 minutes are required, and we go with the earliest time of PC Harvey's patrol (1:41), then the murder had to happen around 1:36. The latest the Church Passage Couple were spotted is 1:35 (Lawende's estimate). It takes 30 seconds at an average walking speed to get to the crime scene. That means, even if the Church Passage Couple waited up to 30 seconds after Lawende and Levy passed before going into Mitre Square, they can get there and everything we know "fits". It's not orchestrated as if by design, rather those events (end of rain, patrol of PC Harvey/opening of door by Morris) explain why Eddowes and JtR didn't enter the square earlier (it was raining hard) and why JtR might have let before PC Watkins returned (scared off by PC Harvey and/or Morris opening the door).

And the Church Passage Couple is in a location, spotted at a time, that also allows them to get to the crime scene location in that time frame. It doesn't prove they were Eddowes and JtR, but it shows they very well could have been. But none of it requires scripting a priori.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

i dont know what you and sam are reading jeff but ill go with dr brown . IT REQUIRED A GREAT DEAL OF MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE.

I've just checked out the inquest testimony by Dr. Brown, as listed here https://www.casebook.org/official_do...t_eddowes.html

...
[Coroner] Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? - He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.
[Coroner] Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes? - None whatever.
[Coroner] Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.
[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up animals? - Yes.

So, no mention of medical knowledge, and an affermation that all that was required was knowledge gained by cutting up animals.

And the testimony of Dr. Sequeira

"...He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill. "

and so forth. But since you're going with Dr. Brown as your chosen expert, he never says medical knowledge, and he specifically says that cutting up animals would be enough.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Mine was from his Post Mortem notes, your from the inquest , so i guess we have to take both statements into consideration do we not? , so he does say ''medical knowledge'' .....and if jack the ripper murdered a goat or a pig that night '....[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up humans ?. this would also be a yes . its a nothing statement works both ways....

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

I put this together as it may help clarify what I've been trying to say. Basically, it's just a visual representation of the time line of events that constrain things. The blue line spans the time of PC Watkin's beat when he's not in Mitre Square (from 1:30 to about 1:32 he's patrolling Mitre Square). That means the murder could have occurred any time during that blue line. And if that's all we knew, then that would be our constraints.

However, PC Harvey indicates he patrolled Church Passage around 1:41 to 1:42 (he's the orange/brown line; the downward dip indicates the 1:41-1:42 range). The murder could have occurred any time prior to his patrol, and while it's possible JtR was in the square and continued his actions despite PC Harvey coming up Church Passage (i.e. JtR didn't notice him), most likely this event would cause JtR to flee the scene if he's still there. So, the murder, in all probability must have ended no later than that period (it could, of course, have ended earlier, before PC Harvey arrives).

The above two bits of information indicate that the murder, therefore, was completed most likely by 1:41 to 142, but there's a small possibility it continued up to shortly before 1:44, when PC Watkins arrives on the scene to find Eddowes. I've therefore marked the window of time for the murder to have been completed with the purple line, and again, the line dips to indicate the "unlikely but possible end times extending beyond PC Harvey's patrol").

Now, Lawende and Levey left the club when the heavy rains stopped, and at that point spotted the Church Passage Couple. From their combined testimony, therefore, we know the rain stopped somewhere between 1:33 and 1:35 (shown by the green line).

From the crime scene evidence, and based upon reasonable assumptions about human behaviour (clients and prostitutes don't go to conduct business in the pouring rain), we can take the end of the rain to indicate the after which the murder occurred.

This narrows down the time window over which the murder and mutilations had to start and complete, which the medical testimony at the time was for 5 minutes (modern medical testimony has suggested as little as 2-3 minutes as well).

Going with the earliest time that PC Harvey indicates he patrolled Church Passage (1:41) and suggesting that caused JtR to flee, then that means the murder had to have started 5 minutes before that. And as we can see, that is indeed after the rain has stopped. It also leaves a gap of time of about 1 minute for JtR and Eddowes to get to the crime scene location.

Now, 1 minute gap of time is the most conservative "gap" (it's the least amount of time Eddowes and JtR have to get to that location). For example, if the rain ended at 1:33 and not 1:35, then that gap becomes 3 minutes. And if PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage at 1:42 and not 1:41, that's another minute.

So, given the ranges of times we've been given from the evidence, there's a minimum gap of 1 minute, and as much as 4 minutes (rain ends at 1:33 and PC Harvey Patrols at 1:42).

None of this is about orchestrating anything. The above events are the constraints, they are events that happened that limit the time into which one can reasonably expect the murder to have occurred. These constraints apply universally, and are not specific to the Church Passage Couple.

As for he Church Passage Couple, they are in a location that would require 30 seconds at an average walking pace to reach the crime scene. That means, even in the most conservative and restrictive evaluation of the evidence, they require less time to get there than the smallest gap we have. But to be within the evidence we have, you can slide the red line (5 minute window for the murder and mutilations) left and right provided the start of the red line does not go left of the green, and provided the right side of the red line does not go past the right end of the purple, though some of that latter "slide" means you're saying JtR continued mutilating Eddowes while PC Harvey was at the end of Church Passage - if you don't want to do that, you can only "slide right" up to 1 minute. If you want to claim the murder took more than 5 minutes, you can lengthen that red line (though you're working against the contemporary and modern testimony if you do this). If you want to claim the murder and mutilations took less than 5 minutes (as per some modern suggestions) you can shorten the red line and slide it accordingly.

What I'm pointing out, is that none of that is necessary. The data we have is consistent within itself (which I'm personally surprised by actually given the inaccuracies of time estimation, and eye witness testimony in general).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

Mine was from his Post Mortem notes, your from the inquest , so i guess we have to take both statements into consideration do we not? , so he does say ''medical knowledge'' .....and if jack the ripper murdered a goat or a pig that night '....[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up humans ?. this would also be a yes . its a nothing statement works both ways....

And we also have to take into account the opinions of other medical experts and not cherry pick one we like, and when we do that the consensus is that no more anatomical knowledge than that obtained by cutting up animals was required. Of course, JtR could have had more than that, but it's not necessary for him to have had more than that.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Robin Odell puts it this way '' of the six medical doctors who commented on the victims and there were only six... 5 of them agreed to anatomical knowledge, 1 said no anatomical knowledge, of the 5 3 said great deal of anatomical knowledge . No need to cheery pick with this statement, im sure we know where the general consensus lies.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

Robin Odell puts it this way '' of the six medical doctors who commented on the victims and there were only six... 5 of them agreed to anatomical knowledge, 1 said no anatomical knowledge, of the 5 3 said great deal of anatomical knowledge . No need to cheery pick with this statement, im sure we know where the general consensus lies.

Anatomical knowledge means knowing the general positions of the organs, which is what someone who slaughters and guts animals for a living would have. It's not "surgical skill" or specifically "human anatomical knowledge." So yes, the consensus is that JtR had some anatomical knowledge, but not surgical skill or specifically restricted to human anatomical knowledge.

And if that's the case, and JtR did have anatomical knowledge, given the job requirements of someone who guts animals for a living (meaning, they have to do it quickly because slow workers are not appreciated), the speed at which JtR seems to have performed his actions are far more consistent with that skill set than a medical professional who would be trained to work slowly.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Anatomical Knowledge . plainly put, anyone of the 3... A,surgeon, B,physician, or C ,someone who guts animals for a living, JTR ,according to all six doctors who suggest anatomical knowledge ''COULD'' have been any one of the above. in the 5 mins alleged that it took to inflict eddows injuries im fairly positive that A and B could just as easily have worked as fast as C , bearing in mind eddows was dead there would be no need for care in that respect. but ill stick to my point that all three couldn't have done it in the timeline suggested by sam flynn. And ive already given two such medical expert who used the word impossible When describing the method and time required to complete such an act. Just one thing to remember also for those who will say that other medical experts say it can be done, i say great, give them a knife and take the to mitre square at 1.35 am put him in the darkest corner set the stopwatch to five minutes and say go, just as long as theres a bookie there so i can put my house on it. Of course a controlled experiment with an dead animal similar to a human .

[JeffHamm]

Hi All,

With regards to the time line above. I know it starts to feel like there's little room for error, but remember, what I've presented there is the most restrictive reading of the evidence. There's a lot more "wiggle room" than it looks. Again, the evidence indicates the rain stops as early as 1:33, and PC Harvey patrols Church Passage as late as 1:42 (and as he testifies he saw nobody, we know the Church Passage Couple has left by this point in time). That expands the "gap" in time unaccounted for to 4 minutes rather than 1.

Also, and this is perhaps what I consider the most important thing to remember, is that the more accurate our understanding of the events becomes, the less wiggle room (error) there should be. Here's what I mean. Let's pretend there was CCTV footage, which captured the whole event. We could then, based upon that evidence, account for every second. There would be no error at all. The "one to 4 minute gap" is time for which we cannot account, but into which something was happening.

Now here's the thing, we do have some other "puzzle pieces", one of which is getting Eddowes and JtR to the crime scene location. The start of the murder had to have been preceded by them travelling there. The Church Passage Couple would require 30 seconds (at an average walking speed), so their "travel time" can, amazingly, actually be fitted into the time not yet accounted for by even the most restrictive reading of the data. Leaving us 30 seconds of time left unaccounted for.

Now Lawende and Levy report leaving the club at 1:33-1:35, and they were 15 yards away from Church Passage when they did so. At an average walking speed, that takes 10 seconds to traverse. Leaving us only 20 seconds left to account for. They walked past the couple, and that means the Church Passage Couple could still hang around in that location for another 20 seconds, given Lawende and company time to get 30 yards (90 feet) away from them, and then take 30 seconds to get to the crime scene, and that gives 5 minutes for the murder and mutilations, upon which PC Harvey arrives, and JtR flees.

This last bit is, of course, highly speculative and is based upon the Church Passage Couple actually being Eddowes and JtR - but I don't know if that's actually true. What I'm arguing is that it could be true even by the most constraining reading of the evidence. And that story, while it sounds precise to the second, has "wiggle room" because it's based upon 1) Lawende's time being right and not Levy's - that alone gives us up to 2 more minutes to expand either the murder, or the time to get to the crime scene, or how long the couple waits after Lawende and company pass and 2) PC Harvey's patrol being at 1:41 and not 1:42, that allows us to distribute that minute over those events as well.

Also, it's based upon all the clocks being exactly in sync. Allowing for some error in those, also loosens up how specific those times may appear as presented.

But if we want to test the hypothesis that the Church Passage Couple was in fact Eddowes and JtR, then even the most restrictive constraints we can apply based upon the evidence we have to work with fails to show that hypothesis is impossible.

For the following I'll use the most restrictive times (Lawende's 1:35 and PC Harris's Patrol at 1:41, but remember those are maximum constraints, expand those and you can distribute the gained time as you see fit):

It gives us a rough picture of what might have been the sequence of events if in fact the Church Passage Couple was indeed Eddowes and JtR :
applies to all explanations for events around Mitre Square:
1:30:00 - Lawende, Levy, & Harris get up to leave the club. Notice it is raining heavily, decide to wait it out
- PC Watkins enters to patrol Mitre Square
1:31:30 - PC Watkins exits Mitre Square (possibly sticks head in to ask Morris to prepare him a cup of tea - makes sense, it's just bucketed on him)
1:35:00 - The rain lets up, Lawende, Levy, and Harris leave the club and spot the Church Passage Couple, apparently taking shelter from the rain
1:35:10 - Lawende, Levy, and Harris walk the 45 feet to Church Passage
1:35:30 - Lawende, Levy, and Harris are 90 feet past Church Passage

section specific to Church Passage Couple being Eddowes and JtR
1:35:30 - Lawende, Levy, and Harris are 90 feet past Church Passage and the Church Passage Couple head into Mitre Square
1:36:00 - The Church Passage Couple arrive at the crime scene and JtR blitz attacks Eddowes, and the 5 minutes for the murder begins

applies to all explanations for events around Mitre Square:
1:41:00 - PC Harvey patrols Church Passage (Church Passage Couple has left), JtR exits Mitre Square, probably out to Mitre Street
1:44:00 - PC Watkins arrives and finds Eddowes

That sequence of events is entirely derived from the evidence as it reads. It also, in my view, contains no controversial assumptions (apart from the obvious Church Passage Couple = Eddowes and JtR - but that's the working hypothesis under investigation), and no movements beyond a normal, average, walking speed (except for the police, who would be patrolling around the regulation speed of 2.5 mph, which is slower than the average of 3.1 mph).

That, however, is not proof that the Church Passage Couple had to be Eddowes and JtR. It is just proof that they could have been and if they were, I think something very close to the above must have happened. None of the start nor end times are "by design", nobody controls the rain, and PC Harvey's patrol would have surprised JtR. The gas lamp at the end of the passage would hinder PC Harvey's ability to see into the dark corner, and if his patrol only takes him to around the C in Church Passage, which would be the "end of Church Passage" as his beat describes, that means he's still 80 feet from the crime scene, looking through a lighted area into the darkest corner. JtR could easily become aware of PC Harvey approaching, and so leave before he had any chance of seeing him as heading towards Mitre Street would take him out of the line of sight of anyone coming up Church Passage almost immediately.

But no, please don't take this to mean I'm saying the Church Passage Couple had to be Eddowes and JtR and that there are no other possible explanations. Because if they weren't, then there are other locations where Eddowes and JtR could possibily have been waiting out the rain. And the evidence we have does not exclude them being in the covered passage between St. James Place and Mitre Square. But they have to arrive there after PC Watkins does his 1:30 patrol (since otherwise he would have spotted them hanging out there - which means they are out in the heavy rain, without shelter, at least at the start of the downpour).

But any explanation/description can only modify the section above in italics, with the allowance of the "other couple" starting their journey at 1:35:00 rather than 1:35:30. Meaning, any other couple has at most only 30 extra seconds to play with. Relaxing the most restrictive times (ending the rain earlier/PC Havey patrolling later) obviously continues to work for the Church Passage Couple.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

01:40:30 ... Evisceration starts. The small intestines are lifted over the shoulder





01:41:00 ... Perhaps on purpose, perhaps by accident, Jack decides to remove the kidney first

01:42:00 ... Jack begins to remove the uterus

01:42:30 ... He botches the operation and cuts through the colon by mistake
For all that to be have happen jeff, this has to be proven to be doable and i just dont believe it . neither do medical experts.

[JeffHamm]

Note, with regards to the above, the average walking speed is 3.1 mph which works out to 45.5 feet every 10 seconds. For the police, they were to patrol at 2.5 mph, which works out to 36.7 feet every 10 seconds.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

01:40:30 ... Evisceration starts. The small intestines are lifted over the shoulder

01:41:00 ... Perhaps on purpose, perhaps by accident, Jack decides to remove the kidney first

01:42:00 ... Jack begins to remove the uterus

01:42:30 ... He botches the operation and cuts through the colon by mistake
For all that to be have happen jeff, this has to be proven to be doable and i just dont believe it . neither do medical experts.

As I said before, I think Sam's time line starts late by a couple minutes. You haven't shifted it, so not surprising those times don't work. I've not tried guesstimate how long each phase of the murder would take as I do not have the expertise to do so, but the medical testimony of the day said 5 minutes (which is what I present above) though some modern medical experts have suggested as little as 2-3 minutes. But all you're doing here is showing times that don't work, so shift everything earlier.
1:36:00 Blitz attack begins with manual stranglulation to unconciousness
1:36:15 Eddowes unconscious, laid to ground
1:36:17 Throat is cut
1:36:47 Facial cuts complete, abdominal mutilations being

And you've now got over 4 minutes remaining for a hack job of the kidney and uterus removal.

- Jeff