Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Wickerman]

....... people testify nobody came out into St. James Place, and by this latest time PC Watkins is in Mitre Street, so that is not available for escape).

Hi Jeff.

This is the other wrinkle, if the killer was disturbed by Harvey coming towards him down Church Passage. His only other means of escape were Mitre Street & St. James Passage, yet Blenkingsop, and two men at the Fire Station were all in St. James Place. Neither of which claimed to see a man hurrying across the Place. Which leaves the Mitre street exit, where Watkins was approaching. Not only was the timing in the square tight, but he continued to thread the needle in making his escape that night.
I really doubt the killer would run diagonally across the square if he saw Harvey coming towards him, his most practical exit route would be via Mitre street in my view.
This then ties in with the Stephen White memoir, for those who consider his story concerned the City murder.

Traditionally, his exit route has been assumed to be St. James Place because it permits a more direct route to Goulston street.
This may have been another incorrect assumption.

[JeffHamm]

That is a very relevant point, Jeff, which got me thinking... If Eddowes had been killed when the shower was in full spate, or even before it started, then surely her clothing would have been thoroughly soaked with rain as her dead body lay motionless. Furthermore, the heavy rain would have dissolved and dissipated a lot of her blood. Given that neither of these seem to have occured, then Eddowes must have been killled after the rain had ceased.

Hi Sam,

Yes, exactly. Even if the Church Passage Couple is not Eddowes and JtR, that sighting is also the time when the rain stopped - because that's what Lawende and Levy were waiting for, the rain to stop, and then they spot the Church Passage Couple. And as you pointed out, the crime scene evidence indicates she was killed after the rain stopped, so even if you don't believe the Church Passage Couple is Eddowes and JtR, there is still the exact same amount of time to deal with. If they only reason one has for concluding that the Church Passage Couple is not Eddowes and JtR is because one feels there's not enough time, well, the mystery couple doesn't have any more time either.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

This is the other wrinkle, if the killer was disturbed by Harvey coming towards him down Church Passage. His only other means of escape were Mitre Street & St. James Passage, yet Blenkingsop, and two men at the Fire Station were all in St. James Place. Neither of which claimed to see a man hurrying across the Place. Which leaves the Mitre street exit, where Watkins was approaching. Not only was the timing in the square tight, but he continued to thread the needle in making his escape that night.

PC Harvey (and Morris opens the door) both somewhere around 1:41-1:42. PC Watkins is still 2 or 3 minutes away and probably hasn't yet entered Mitre Street. JtR could flee out into Mitre Street, head north (continues in the direction he's moving) and out towards Bury Street, for example, and he misses both PC Watkins and bypasses St. James Place. Given he wasn't seen, and given the statements that nobody passed through St. James from Mitre Street, I think something like that could have happened.

I really doubt the killer would run diagonally across the square if he saw Harvey coming towards him, his most practical exit route would be via Mitre street in my view.
This then ties in with the Stephen White memoir, for those who consider his story concerned the City murder.

Traditionally, his exit route has been assumed to be St. James Place because it permits a more direct route to Goulston street.
This may have been another incorrect assumption.

Yes, I used to favour St. James Place for that reason myself. But there's enough reason to think the apron may have been dropped much later, and not right after the crime. And if that were the case, there's no need to prefer him heading in that direction. And I agree, heading diagonally towards PC Harvey seems unlikely.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Good point sam .Joseph Lawende [Coroner] Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me. I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman.Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage . lawende says when they PASSED, inferring there had to be some time elapsed while they were standing outside before they did .levy gave his time only when they came out . so on that im going on 1.35 just an observation. But im curious about your pouring down with rain and eddows clothing .

[Joshua Rogan]

Given that neither Harvey nor Morris spotted Kate's body across the square, miggt it be that the killer simply remained still at their appearance, rather than drawing attention to himself by moving?
Especially if he was wearing dark clothing and crouched with his back to Church Passage.

[FISHY1118]

Timeline of the Events in Mitre Square

Taking the foregoing into account, a reasonable sequence of events for the night in question might be summarised as follows:

01:37:00 ... Lawende et al pass Eddowes and Jack outside Church Passage

01:38:00 ... Eddowes and Jack enter Mitre Square and walk to “Ripper’s Corner”

01:39:00 ... Jack kills Eddowes. Crouching just below her right shoulder, he first mutilates her face

01:40:00 ... The jagged cut to the abdomen is inflicted, with Jack still positioned to the body’s right

01:40:30 ... Evisceration starts. The small intestines are lifted over the shoulder

01:41:00 ... Perhaps on purpose, perhaps by accident, Jack decides to remove the kidney first

01:42:00 ... Jack begins to remove the uterus

01:42:30 ... He botches the operation and cuts through the colon by mistake

01:43:00 ... Perhaps in a feet of pique, he cuts the rest of the colon away and lays it at Kate’s side

01:43:30 ... His hands contaminated by faeces, Jack cuts the piece of Kate’s apron to wipe his hands

01:44:00 ... Perhaps sensing the arrival of PC Watkins, Jack hastily leaves Mitre Square

INTERESTING, 1.30 MINUTES TO REMOVE THE KIDNEY AND THE UTERUS ...AND IN THE DARK TOO..

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I believe someone in a house nearby Mitre square saw a man with an umbrella walk by muttering, 'They think it was me its not'' or something similar.

[Wickerman]

Yes, exactly. Even if the Church Passage Couple is not Eddowes and JtR, that sighting is also the time when the rain stopped - because that's what Lawende and Levy were waiting for, the rain to stop,

Hi Jeff.

The sighting (1:35) is after the rain stopped. The rain must stop first before they get up to leave, which is before they saw the couple outside.

But answer this, if it was raining up to 1:30 Eddowes clothes would have been wet anyway, not just because she was dead in the square. Even alive she is outside getting wet.
Unless, she is sheltering in the only covered passage we know of in the vicinity - St. James Passage between St. James Place and Mitre Square.

The couple in Duke street must have been wet, yet Eddowes clothes were not wet?

[JeffHamm]

Good point sam .Joseph Lawende [Coroner] Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me. I have no doubt it was half-past one o'clock when we rose to leave the club, so that it would be twenty-five minutes to two o'clock when we passed the man and woman.Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy, the butcher in Hutcheson-street, Aldgate, stated: I was with the last witness at the Imperial Club on Saturday night, Sept. 29. We got up to leave at half-past one on Sunday morning, and came out three or four minutes later. I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Church-passage . lawende says when they PASSED, inferring there had to be some time elapsed while they were standing outside before they did .levy gave his time only when they came out . so on that im going on 1.35 just an observation. But im curious about your pouring down with rain and eddows clothing .

Hi Fishy,


With regards to the rain, Lawende and Levy remained in the club until the rain stopped (somewhere there's testimony on that, I forget where exactly), and there's also a newspaper report posted here (might be this thread) that reports it was one of the biggest downpours for a while. The club was only a short distance from the Passage, I think it's closer than the murder scene, but someone else could verify that.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

The sighting (1:35) is after the rain stopped. The rain must stop first before they get up to leave, which is before they saw the couple outside.

But answer this, if it was raining up to 1:30 Eddowes clothes would have been wet anyway, not just because she was dead in the square. Even alive she is outside getting wet.
Unless, she is sheltering in the only covered passage we know of in the vicinity - St. James Passage between St. James Place and Mitre Square.

The couple in Duke street must have been wet, yet Eddowes clothes were not wet?

Hi Wickerman,

That's possible. I always read it as they got up to leave at 1:30, noticed the rain, and waited before heading out the door. Yes, I would think so too. But if she was huddling close to JtR and he provided her shelter, which is sort of what it sounds like the Church Passage Couple could have been doing, that would protect the front of her clothes. But yes, if they were sheltering in St. James Place passage, that would keep them dry too.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Given that neither Harvey nor Morris spotted Kate's body across the square, miggt it be that the killer simply remained still at their appearance, rather than drawing attention to himself by moving?
Especially if he was wearing dark clothing and crouched with his back to Church Passage.

Hi Joshua,

Morris just opens the door a bit to aid sweeping up, he doesn't report opening it wide or going into the square, so I don't think Morris looked out. But it is within possibilities that JtR had his back to PC Harvey and didn't notice him and was lucky not to be seen. I don't like too much luck involved myself though, and tend to think that JtR would have fled as PC Harvey came up the passage, so he was out of there by the time PC Harvey reached the Mitre Square end (there's lamps at both ends, so I'm presuming Harvey would be visible as he made is patrol).

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

But if she was huddling close to JtR and he provided her shelter, which is sort of what it sounds like the Church Passage Couple could have been doing, that would protect the front of her clothes. But yes, if they were sheltering in St. James Place passage, that would keep them dry too.

Indeed, and I'd also suggest that there's a difference between getting wet whilst walking through the rain, and getting drenched by a downpour when you're spreadeagled on the ground, with your clothing splayed out either side of you and the wall of your abdomen peeled open. It would have been very apparent if Eddowes had been killed during the downpour and, I'd suggest, it would have been noted.

[JeffHamm]

Indeed, and I'd also suggest that there's a difference between getting wet whilst walking through the rain, and getting drenched by a downpour when you're spreadeagled on the ground, with your clothing splayed out either side of you and the wall of your abdomen peeled open. It would have been very apparent if Eddowes had been killed during the downpour and, I'd suggest, it would have been noted.

Yes, I would think so. I'm not a medical expert, but I would think if she bled out, and then it rained, that would interfere with clotting as the blood dilutes? I don't have the reports in front of me, but don't they report a large clot of blood beside her neck?

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

The club was only a short distance from the Passage, I think it's closer than the murder scene, but someone else could verify that.

MA 12 Oct;
"The Imperial Club is situated at 16 and 17 Duke street. The man and woman I saw standing together were about nine yards away from the club."

Times;
"The distance between the Imperial Club and the top of Church-passage, where he saw the man and the woman standing together, was about nine or ten yards"

Daily News;
"The club is 16 and 17 Duke street, about 15 or 16 feet from where they were standing at Church passage."

also
"We could not get home because it was raining. At half past one we left to go out, and left the house about five minutes later."

[JeffHamm]

MA 12 Oct;
"The Imperial Club is situated at 16 and 17 Duke street. The man and woman I saw standing together were about nine yards away from the club."

Times;
"The distance between the Imperial Club and the top of Church-passage, where he saw the man and the woman standing together, was about nine or ten yards"

Daily News;
"The club is 16 and 17 Duke street, about 15 or 16 feet from where they were standing at Church passage."

also
"We could not get home because it was raining. At half past one we left to go out, and left the house about five minutes later."

Ah, thanks for that Joshua! I thought it was close, didn't realize it was quite that close though. And yes, that last one I have seen, which is why I viewed it as they left as soon as the rain stopped, so use their sighting as an indicator of both their sighting and when the rain stopped. Much appreciated.

- Jeff