Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[JeffHamm]

With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

....
Jim P

Hi Jim P.

Another possibility is that Kate was simply headed to St. Botolph's Church, which was known as the prostitute's church (as they often walked around it while plying their trade). It's only a street or two away from Mitre Square, and the shortest route from St. Botolph's Church and Mitre Square would be through Church Passage. Also, if JtR did kill Stride and then Eddowes, leaving Stride's crime scene and getting to Mitre Square would have him pass by St. Botolph's Church.

Eddowes left turn from the police station would be what she would do if she was heading there. Casual prostitution was an unfortunate necessity of the times. JtR's other victims, Polly, Annie, and Mary, were known to be actively engaged in prostitution (Polly and Annie were both out looking to earn their doss money, and Barnett left Mary as she had started engaging in prostitution again to make ends meet), and Stride had a conviction for prostitution in Sweden many years earlier (not sure if there's anything more contemporary). We know Eddowes was without doss money as well, and yet somehow had at some point been able to obtain enough drink to get arrested for drunkeness. So, rather than requiring a complicated change for Eddowes, a lot of things point to her engaging in casual prostitution as well, conforming to JtR's victim type. Also, I believe St. Botolph's Church is not far off from where she had been arrested earlier for being drunk.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Well, I doubt he would have used the carriageway size exit Jeff, I think alleys and lanes is this guys motif. Church Lane seems to me to be the most accessible and cleanest egress point, but of course not with a patrolman in it. He left before Watkins, we know that...did he leave before Harvey? IF Kate was seen by Lawende that is. Is there really enough time? Some would argue Yes, for me, I doubt it. Too much done and extra, time wasting, cuts..like the apron. And I do not believe Harvey would have simply missed seeing something if the killer was still there.

By Carriageway sized exit I presume you mean out into Mitre Street? That would be the most logical, actually, given it's close to the murder location, and away from PC Havey as he approaches (presuming that's triggered JtR's flight, of course). Church Passage (is that what you mean by Church Lane) is also viable once Harvey has turned around and exited, and there's also the exit through St. James Place (another alley way).

As for Harvey missing JtR in the square, it is rather the reverse, given the lamp at the end of Church Passage, Harvey only has to patrol to the point he reaches the far lit side as the lamp lights up the Mitre Square end of the passage. Havey's patrol does not include Mitre Square, so once he gets to the point he can see the remaining portion of Church Passage, he's still a distance from the end of the passage and has a lamp between him and the unlit square. Basically, that's going to prevent him from seeing into the square (but not from being seen by someone in the square because Harvey will be lit up looking into the dark, rather than in the dark looking at someone lit up). Given that, it's highly improbable he would have seen anything in the corner, and indeed, he didn't (though we know Eddowes' body at least was there at the time).

JtR might even have crouched and hid. While this strikes me as highly improbable behavior as I imagine I would flee, I'm not a negrophilic serial killer (which JtR's behaviours suggest he was). Peter Sutcliff, however, did exactly that on a number of occasions when he was almost caught in the act of killing, once by the police if I recall correctly. Anyway, JtR may very well have waited long enough to see what PC Harvey would do, and when it was clear Harvey was going to leave, then JtR probably got out of there by the nearest exit, which in this case would be out into Mitre Street.

And yes, there is enough time unaccounted for, even if the Church Passage Couple were Eddowes and JtR; it's tight, but even the shortest amount of time unaccounted for exceeds the longest estimated time (5 minutes) required for the murder and mutilations. It becomes easier to imagine as one starts to consider the time ranges, as these expand the amount of time available rather than reduce it. Earlier in this thread I present a fair number of posts on this point, so won't repeat it all here.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, if PC Harvey lied about patrolling Church Passage then things look different. However, way back at the start of this thread I posted the results of simulating locations based upon the known beats (as they were to be done) and patrol times (as testified to), and based upon the reconstruction nothing in the testimony gets compromised. Meaning, it all lines up and corresponds to what is testified to and the reconstruction doesn't contradict the testimony. We also know there was a light at the end of Church Passage, just before going into Mitre Square, and that Mitre Square wasn't part of PC Harvey's beat. So, given that, PC Harvey would, I think it fair to suggest, only need to patrol Church Passage far enough to be able to cover the dark portion, and once he reaches the lit area, doesn't need to go to the end of it and so would be that much further from where Church Passage empties into Mitre Square. He would also be looking through a lit area into the dark corner, and so would be unlikely to see anything in the square, but as that's not part of his patrol, no big deal to him on that. But, if JtR were in the dark corner, he would have a very good chance of noticing PC Harvey and see that PC Harvy turn around and leave, giving him a good opportunity to flee one of the alternative routes, just before PC Watkins arrives a few minutes later.

Basically, I don't think there's any need to suggest PC Harvey didn't patrol the passage as he testifies, other than to open up consideration of Church Passage as an exit route. And yet, if JtR did see PC Harvey turn around and leave, I suppose one could then argue that he now knows that passage won't be patrolled for a bit, so it's a safe option, and he may even see PC Harvey heading away from Church Passage and so then flees the other way, taking him towards Goulston Street. I admit, this is a "just so" story, and it would require some pretty unusual choices to be made by JtR (I would think the instinct would be to flee by one of the other routes rather than follow the police), but it does mean we can't rule it out completely. Evaluation of how probable the above is becomes entirely subjective.

- Jeff

Well, I doubt he would have used the carriageway size exit Jeff, I think alleys and lanes is this guys motif. Church Lane seems to me to be the most accessible and cleanest egress point, but of course not with a patrolman in it. He left before Watkins, we know that...did he leave before Harvey? IF Kate was seen by Lawende that is. Is there really enough time? Some would argue Yes, for me, I doubt it. Too much done and extra, time wasting, cuts..like the apron. And I do not believe Harvey would have simply missed seeing something if the killer was still there.

[DJA]

Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

Jim P

Kate pretending to be a fire engine was a later embellishment.

Pretty close on "Nothing".

Suspect Juwes was really Iuwes ..... International Workingmen Educationals,largely because Juwes isn't spelt with a capital I.

Doing well buddy.

PS. To the others ...... Henry,oops,Jack obviously knew the police beats and was far to busy cutting to be taking time off hiding around corners.

[jerryd]

With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

Jim P

Hi Jim P.

Not so crazy, really. To add some real facts to this scenario and a bit of speculation on my part, I came up with this "what if" scenario awhile back.

The facts:

When returning from hopping in Kent, Kate stayed at the Shoe Lane workhouse on Thursday night, September 27th.
(A certain man heavily involved in this case, Albert Bachert, worked for a copperplate engraver (Henry Dix) who had his business at Poppins Court, Fleet Street. A stone's throw from the Shoe Lane workhouse.)

On the night Kate was arrested at 29, Aldgate Street, Bachert was at the Three Nuns Hotel. The Three Nuns was a few doors down from 29, Aldgate Street.
(Bachert had his nose in everything. He could very well have been on the scene for Kate's arrest. He could possibly have arranged a meeting with her at the Three Nuns after speaking with her near Shoe Lane and got her drunk. Also may have arranged a meeting time and place later that night in Mitre Square while at the Three Nuns with her.)

Bachert grew up in Duke Street near Mitre Square.
(He would know that area well)

Bachert's employer was also located directly across the street from the Central News Agency.
(The Dear Boss Letter was received by the Central News Agency on Thursday, September 27th.)

Bachert was very involved with Ripper Letters. Some believed he was the author of some but he did receive some as well.

With that information, one can formulate a scenario based partly on facts and part speculation.

[Juniper4576]

With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

Jim P

[Juniper4576]

Sorry, not at the Fire Station, he was the watchman at some roadworks. (I checked the A-Z).

Is this a Fire Station as in leave there to put out fires? I know it sounds stupid, but I have just had a funny thought

[JeffHamm]

Why wait until Harvey is facing the square, before moving?
We should wonder if the police weren't just offering opinions, but actually had strong evidence for JtR's path from MS to Goulston street, such as blood drop stains on pavements.

If the Church Passage exit is accepted (or temporarily considered true, to see where it leads), then we do have to wonder if Jack were actually seen exiting the square, and if he exchanged words with another man at the time, who that man might have been, and why he perceived foul play to have occurred.

Well, Havey is facing the square once he enters to start his patrol, so the question is either why wait until Harvey is close to the square before moving, which I agree is a fair question. I would think, though, once he's left the body due to the arrival of a PC, he's not likely to stick around once he's left the square, he's more likely to keep moving on as there's a chance the body will be discovered, which precludes Church Passage. So, the only way Church Passage comes into play is if JtR doesn't notice PC Harvey until Harvey is near the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and close to the area lit up by the lamp. And if so, he has to wait until PC Harvey at least turns around, and to me, that would be the time to leave via another exit rather than wait for PC Harvey to walk back down Church Passage, but of course, I don't know that as a fact, just seems to me to be the most plausible sequence.

There are no reports of blood stains found indicating the path he travelled, but I would think such information would have been documented and we would have some indications of such a clue in the surviving police records. But as nothing like that seems to arise, even in memoirs, I tend to doubt such evidence was available at the time.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, but the more JtR moves while PC Harvey is facing the square, the greater the chance of his detection (our visual system is quite sensitive to movement), and while we know he wasn't detected, that's hindsight. JtR at the time would, I suspect, be more apt to freeze and try and stay low to minimize his profile, if he was still there of course. But, that's just an opinion not a fact, so feel free to ignore.

- Jeff

Why wait until Harvey is facing the square, before moving?
We should wonder if the police weren't just offering opinions, but actually had strong evidence for JtR's path from MS to Goulston street, such as blood drop stains on pavements.

If the Church Passage exit is accepted (or temporarily considered true, to see where it leads), then we do have to wonder if Jack were actually seen exiting the square, and if he exchanged words with another man at the time, who that man might have been, and why he perceived foul play to have occurred.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

JtR can briefly hide from PC Harvey, by standing behind the corner of the Taylor & Co. building, within the entranceway of the square.
If it happens that Harvey continues into the square, Jack can simply walk away along Mitre street.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...650#post733650

Yes, but the more JtR moves while PC Harvey is facing the square, the greater the chance of his detection (our visual system is quite sensitive to movement), and while we know he wasn't detected, that's hindsight. JtR at the time would, I suspect, be more apt to freeze and try and stay low to minimize his profile, if he was still there of course. But, that's just an opinion not a fact, so feel free to ignore.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Its also possible that Harvey did not make his pass at that time for whatever reason. His testimony is sound enough, but I cant help thinking a beat cop in the city wouldnt be expecting much to happen on his beat, and this is before he learns of Berner Street I believe. Might he make up time, or linger a bit here or there, and might he then decide to skip the peek into the square that pass?

The amount of people in fairly close proximity to this murder at the time it occurs is interesting, the fact that all of them are current or ex police is interesting too. The 3 detectives nearby, the 2 constables entering the square sporadically, the night watchman, Pearce in his house which had a bedroom window that looked down on the murder site.

It seems to me if Kate was killed on that spot then someone looking towards that spot at 1:40 would see a killer and a body. I think Watkins might have just missed him, but that he may have used Church Passage, if one questions Harvey.

Yes, if PC Harvey lied about patrolling Church Passage then things look different. However, way back at the start of this thread I posted the results of simulating locations based upon the known beats (as they were to be done) and patrol times (as testified to), and based upon the reconstruction nothing in the testimony gets compromised. Meaning, it all lines up and corresponds to what is testified to and the reconstruction doesn't contradict the testimony. We also know there was a light at the end of Church Passage, just before going into Mitre Square, and that Mitre Square wasn't part of PC Harvey's beat. So, given that, PC Harvey would, I think it fair to suggest, only need to patrol Church Passage far enough to be able to cover the dark portion, and once he reaches the lit area, doesn't need to go to the end of it and so would be that much further from where Church Passage empties into Mitre Square. He would also be looking through a lit area into the dark corner, and so would be unlikely to see anything in the square, but as that's not part of his patrol, no big deal to him on that. But, if JtR were in the dark corner, he would have a very good chance of noticing PC Harvey and see that PC Harvy turn around and leave, giving him a good opportunity to flee one of the alternative routes, just before PC Watkins arrives a few minutes later.

Basically, I don't think there's any need to suggest PC Harvey didn't patrol the passage as he testifies, other than to open up consideration of Church Passage as an exit route. And yet, if JtR did see PC Harvey turn around and leave, I suppose one could then argue that he now knows that passage won't be patrolled for a bit, so it's a safe option, and he may even see PC Harvey heading away from Church Passage and so then flees the other way, taking him towards Goulston Street. I admit, this is a "just so" story, and it would require some pretty unusual choices to be made by JtR (I would think the instinct would be to flee by one of the other routes rather than follow the police), but it does mean we can't rule it out completely. Evaluation of how probable the above is becomes entirely subjective.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

If JtR escaped via Church Passage, then based upon the reported timing of events, it would require that he fled that way after PC Harvey had patrolled it. It seems unlikely to me that JtR would stick by the body while a PC came down Church Passage, with a lantern, given that it would be entirely possible that the PC's route included the square itself (unless one wants to harbour the notion that JtR had the patrol routes memorized, which I think stretches credibility). It seems far more likely to me that, once PC Harvey started coming down Church Passage if JtR were still at the scene, he left that that time (it's possible that he was already on the move as Morris testifies he had opened the warehouse door around the same time, so if that happens first then JtR might very well have fled then, just ahead of Harvey's patrol. There's not enough information for us to order Morris and Harvey with anything resembling certainty).

So, while it is not impossible that JtR waited for Harvey to retreat down Church Passage, and then fled behind him (and one could point to Annie's murder, where there is some reason to consider JtR remained despite activity in the yard next door), the more probable routes seem to me to be the other two. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, just seems highly improbable to me.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

JtR can briefly hide from PC Harvey, by standing behind the corner of the Taylor & Co. building, within the entranceway of the square.
If it happens that Harvey continues into the square, Jack can simply walk away along Mitre street.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/catherine-eddowes/708544-jack-s-escape-from-mitre-square?p=733650#post733650

[Michael W Richards]

Its also possible that Harvey did not make his pass at that time for whatever reason. His testimony is sound enough, but I cant help thinking a beat cop in the city wouldnt be expecting much to happen on his beat, and this is before he learns of Berner Street I believe. Might he make up time, or linger a bit here or there, and might he then decide to skip the peek into the square that pass?

The amount of people in fairly close proximity to this murder at the time it occurs is interesting, the fact that all of them are current or ex police is interesting too. The 3 detectives nearby, the 2 constables entering the square sporadically, the night watchman, Pearce in his house which had a bedroom window that looked down on the murder site.

It seems to me if Kate was killed on that spot then someone looking towards that spot at 1:40 would see a killer and a body. I think Watkins might have just missed him, but that he may have used Church Passage, if one questions Harvey.

[JeffHamm]

Hi NBFN,

If JtR escaped via Church Passage, then based upon the reported timing of events, it would require that he fled that way after PC Harvey had patrolled it. It seems unlikely to me that JtR would stick by the body while a PC came down Church Passage, with a lantern, given that it would be entirely possible that the PC's route included the square itself (unless one wants to harbour the notion that JtR had the patrol routes memorized, which I think stretches credibility). It seems far more likely to me that, once PC Harvey started coming down Church Passage if JtR were still at the scene, he left that that time (it's possible that he was already on the move as Morris testifies he had opened the warehouse door around the same time, so if that happens first then JtR might very well have fled then, just ahead of Harvey's patrol. There's not enough information for us to order Morris and Harvey with anything resembling certainty).

So, while it is not impossible that JtR waited for Harvey to retreat down Church Passage, and then fled behind him (and one could point to Annie's murder, where there is some reason to consider JtR remained despite activity in the yard next door), the more probable routes seem to me to be the other two. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, just seems highly improbable to me.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Echo, Oct 6:

ANOTHER POLICE THEORY.

It is pointed out that the murderer, after the commission of his last crime, undoubtedly proceeded from Mitre square, by way of Church passage, Duke street, Houndsditch, Gravel lane, Storey lane, to Goulston street, at which spot all clue appears to have been lost of him. In this neighbourhood he evidently entered one of the notorious houses to which admission cannot be obtained without elaborate arrangements and a certain amount of danger. It would take about ten minutes for a person to get from Mitre square to the neighbourhood, so that the murderer was well away from the scene, and perhaps safely under cover, before Constable Watkins obtained even medical assistance after the discovery of the body.

When it is 'pointed out' by the police, that the murderer 'undoubtedly proceeded from Mitre Square, by way of Church Passage', and reached Goulston street by a specific route, 'at which spot all clue appears to have been lost of him', it is clear that this is not some speculative theory, but rather what is regarded as fact.